Food Safety Talk 38: Like an 80's Dating Show

Once again, Skype and Call Recorder weren’t playing nicely for Ben while Don felt a bit like Michael Douglas in the Wonder Boys. Don has been investigating Google Hangouts for running a online live show though Michelle Danyluk didn’t think they could do a live show at IAFP, unless maybe it was in the format of an 80’s dating show, like the one on Mallrats.

Ben had some follow up to his son, Jack, vomiting on a Delta plane reported in Episode 37 . While Ben initially thought the etiological agent was Astrovirus (which would make Jack ‘Astro Boy’) he wasn't sure after feeling the effects a week later. It even stopped Ben from fully enjoying the dinner he had at Fire with Michele.

Ben then had some follow up about the state ag-gag laws. The guys were concerned about the protective approach instead of being open and transparent. The latter would also help the agriculture industry to create a greater understanding of food production. And sometimes an exposé (or Exposé) can change things for the better.

In the new Bug Trivia segment, Don shared some information about Salmonella pulled together by Carl Custer. It turns out that Salmonella was named after a guy who didn’t discover it and after a disease that it didn’t cause – go figure.

The discussion then turned to a Cryptosporidia-related outbreak in Bendigo, Australia. Ben felt that the public health messages in the article were conflicting (and incorrect). The guys disagreed with the advice that hand hygiene was important (in this instance) and were more inclined to believe that it was transmitted through swimming pools. In fact, crypto is a hardly little parasite for which alcohol based sanitizers and even chlorine aren’t effective.

This reminded Don of a recent hepatitis A scare and an article that was published in the journal of Food Protection entitled “Cost Effectiveness of Vaccinating Food Service Workers against Hepatitis A Infection” which concluded a public health benefit to hospitality workers, but not patrons. This prompted a broader discussion about Hep A infected restaurant staff.

The guys then turned from pastry chefs in restaurants to pastry in Greek university canteens. The guys were concerned about the results, though Don’s work on ready-to-eat foods in university canteens shows much, much lower levels. Well, maybe the staff in the Greek university canteens didn’t have time for training, just like the business that took part in a study by Campden BRI, which indicated that food safety training was hampered by lack of time. However, Don and Ben were skeptical about “43% [who] said food safety training was obstructed by the difficulties of checking the effectiveness of training programmes.”

Ben then steered to conversation to writing journal articles and Don’s use of contour plots – he clearly is The Boss. Don’s contour plot shows the log increases in Listeria organisms given time and temperature, from which suitable consumer messages can be created.

Before signing off, the guys then briefly talked about Doug Powell being fired from Kansas State for bad attendance and Don expressed his gratitude for all of Doug’s work, which helped him enormously over the years. And it looks like Doug’s keen to come on the podcast … so stay tuned.

In the after dark, the guys talked about toilet paper dispensers for campers, though Ben’s missing the iPhone holder, and the Apple remote.​

Food Safety Talk 37: Inoculating the Plane

The guys started with some follow up on The Wire, The Newsroom, what colored food does to your poop, Mike Batz’ link to Craig Goldwyn’s Huffington Post article on sprouts, T. gondii in Romanian animals, and F’ed up.

Aaron’s email then prompted a discussion about Plague Inc., the CDC’s interest in it and CDC’s own game Solve the Outbreak. The guys were impressed by how progressive the CDC is in terms of social media and new ways of engaging the public.

Don then provided some info about HDScores, a company that plans to make Restaurant Inspection Scores from 3100 jurisdictions from the US, Canada and UK widely available. This prompted a discussion about making restaurant scores available to the public in an interpretable way.

Ben shared his experiences from a recent trip to Calgary, where his 4 year old son Jack got sick, possibly with Norovirus. Ben was fascinated by Delta Airlines’ approach of dealing with the vomit problem, which involved plastic bags to contain the risk and coffee pods to manage the smell. Don was familiar with the approach thanks to Roderick on the Line. Ben didn’t agree with Delta’s decision to take them off plane first (thus inoculating the plane).  It reminded him of two different articles. Both Don and Ben were glad Delta had a plan, even if they didn’t quite agree with the whole plan.

Don then wanted to ask Ben about a Meatingplace article by Richard Raymond entitled Is our food safer than five years ago? (free registration needed to read). Ben explained why he didn’t agree with Richard’s arguments. Don agreed and asked aloud about conspiracy theories, not dissimilar from those surrounding New Coke.

Don then wanted get Ben’s take on the IFT’s March 2013 media update. In fact both Ben and Don thought that these updates were way over the top and it reminded them of "The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons” and Doug Powell’s comment on Barfblog “I'm immediately suspicious of people … who say trust me.” Ben especially didn’t like that organizations say “trust us” and without telling people what the risks are and why they should be trusted. The discussion of food processing reminded Don of Richard Wrangham’s great book "Catching Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human.”

The last thing on Ben’s agenda was Doug’s comparison between the porn industry and the food industry, which had resulted in a fair bit of backlash against the legendary Doug. Ben noted that Doug’s point was how the two industries differed in how they manage the risks, which people missed. And boy… you mention porn and people get excited.

Food Safety Talk 36: Better Collaboration Without Pants

After some initial expected Skype problems the guys talked about a range of topics including their favorite beers, Apple phobias, The Wire, about (not) working from home and Telecommuting policies, writing papers using DragonDictate, Don’s Squarespace 6 trial and Ben’s The Newsroom sharing system.

The guys then critiqued some obfuscated food safety messages about Listeria put out by the Partnership for Food Safety Education. The discussion then turned to the horse meat scandal and that audits are a tool rather than the tool. This reminded Don of the Chinese melamine incident and labeling fraud.

The guys then took a short podcasting detour to Scott Simpson’s Your Monkey Called article for The Magazine entitled You’re boring. It made them think about the stories they are trying to tell in podcast episodes, blog articles or presentations.

This reminded Ben of the story of Ashley’s  lack of emotion to a Norovirus outbreak on UNC campus, but we don’t know how she would react to Carolyn Dunn’s story on Food Myths and Memes of no baby carrots. This turned into a chat about kale, Brussels sprouts, beets, asparagus and bodily functions.

Ben then shared his surprise of reading about accelerated aging canned food, which prompted Don to think about a couple of early food science books – Ted Labuza’s “Shelf-Life Dating of Foods” and Harold McGee’s “Curious Cook.” Though Don wasn’t too keen on the idea of aging canned food.

The guys then wondered about how a Michigan firm could be operating without a HACCP plan and the subsequent recall. Don then got grumpy about Candy eggs that have all been cleared of Salmonella. Then Ben got on his favorite soap box about the lack of information that is being provided.

In the after dark the guys talked about Mobee Magic Charger, HyperJuice 2 external batteries, Don’s ski hat and Ben's toque ,and Ben’s fantasy baseball.​

Food Safety Talk 35: The Abuelas of Social Media

Don was excited about his new “Dan Benjamin approved” microphone and headphones and Ben was excited about Folding Text. After emailing with Marco, from the Neutral podcast, Don is planning on moving Food Safety Talk to Squarespace 6, which should allow them to get better download tracking information. Don and Ben also sent shout-outs to David Tharp (IAFP), Ian Jenson (Meat and Livestock Australia) and Renee Boyer’s Food Safety class.

The discussion then returned to the reusable bag discussion (see FST 34), which was prompted by Tomas Aragon who shared his memo about the “Clickety-Clack” paper. In the memo Thomas pointed out that Klick and Wright had used the ICD-10 codes, for which there were 140 deaths during 2000-2010. However, 111 of these were due to Enterocolitis due to Clostridium difficile, leaving only 29 related to other intestinal infectious diseases.

The guys took a quick pop culture detour to iTunes Match which had allowed Ben to rediscover Rancid. Don’s been listening to R. L. Burnside (not R. L. Stine), Bite Harder: The Music De Wolfe Studio Sampler, Vol. 2 and Holy F*ck.

On return to food safety they guys discussed an article on Farmers Markets and FSMA and in particular the quote from Kate Flannery. Ben disagreed with Kate’s implication that greenhouse farming was without risks. Don agreed that the risks were different rather than non-existent.

The guys then turned to the horse meat scandal in the UK, which is even reverberating through the popular culture twittersphere. Ben challenged Prof. Hugh Pennington’s comments that horse meat was safer than beef, as surely the denominator matters!

The discussion then turned to barbeque and roadkill. While you’ll find some vaguely disturbing erotic images you probably won’t find a road kill recipe on the Amazing Ribs website. Ben did discuss the safety of eating road kill in this barfblog article. Road kill is apparently making a resurgence with those who are struggling with food security (i.e. having enough food to eat). Don has worked with Debra Palmer Keenan to help people make better choices in relation to food safety when they have to compromise on the foods they buy.

Don had some more follow up from FST 34 in relation to washing coffee mugs. He found some silly advice in this Huffington Post article and he expressed his disgust with this Mamapedia article. This got Ben excited as his grad student, Ben, is working on how to engage people in food safety via social media. Ben’s research will focus on mommy blogs (but probably not Dani’s 2 Little Supeheroes blog or Portlandia's Parenting tips over the coming months.

The discussion then turned to Doug’s poop cruise article and that someone sold a bio poop bag on Ebay for $15. Another Barfblog article reported on the closure of Union University in Jackson, Tennessee, due to norovirus and Don contemplated the irony of this happening at North Carolina State University, the home of the NoroCORE project.

In the after dark the guys talked about beverages, iTunes Match and MobileMe, and Ben had some questions about establishing variances to food safety standards.

Food Safety Talk 34: Don't puke up the doughnuts

Participating in the Krispy Kreme Challenge challenged Ben in more ways than one. Don is looking for a new podcasting mic and he is getting some guidance from Dan Benjamin’s guide. The guys discussed the download statistics for the podcast and Folding Text to manage their pre-show notes, as well as Don’s homework, The Newsroom (Canadian TV series), which prompted Don to correctly note the excessive plaid fashions. Bill Hallman had provided some further thoughts on the “no illness language” in recall notices (FST Episode 33) which led to a broader discussion about recalls, including one for Listeria in Crab Dip.

The discussion continued with Listeria, namely Missa Bay LLC's recall due to Listeria in apple slices  and the more recent FDA warning letter to the company. Don and Ben were surprised by where and how much Listeria was found by the FDA. The guys agreed that the publication of these warning letters was a good thing – not only for customers, but also to provide valuable information to suppliers of similar products – which reminded Ben of the Blue Pages for teachers.

The guys then switched to the Chicago Tribune article “Triclosan: Anti-bacterial soaps called useless, potentially dangerous” that Don had been interviewed for (based on his publication “A Meta-Analysis of the Published Literature on the Effectiveness of Antimicrobial Soaps.”) The average benefit of antimicrobial soaps over normal soaps was about 0.5 log, or 63%, and Don explained that the benefits were greatest when the contamination levels of hands were high, for example after handling raw meat and poultry or after cleaning up vomit.

Then Ben and Don got back into the reusable bag discussion. This was prompted by an article by Klick and Wright (not Watson and Crick). Klick and Wright combined Gerba, Williams and Sinclair’s research on bacteria in reusable shopping bags with a pathogenic E. coli related illnesses and deaths in hospital in the San Francisco area. They concluded that the ban on grocery bags led to an increase of 5.4 additional deaths per year, though Ben got really fired up on Barfblog about the lack of epidemiology and microbiology evident in the article. Don also took issue with a couple of lawyers mistaking correlation with causation and recalled FST Episode 19 where the guys had discussed reusable bags, which Carl Custer likes to call nickel bags (or check out this link).

Ben then shared that that his department was advertising a local food extension / research position to collect evidence for a range of possible impacts of local food systems, including food safety, nutrition, or related areas. This led to a discussion about local food systems and Don was all in favor of fresh food, such as the locally source food available at Wegmans.

In the after dark the guys geeked out with Folding Text, Markdown and its syntax, the octothorpe (not to be confused with Dr. Octavius from Spider-Man 2), Ben’s Garage Band workflow, Apple messages for the Mac, and Ken Finkleman.

Food Safety Talk 34: Don't Puke Up the Doughnuts

Food Safety Talk 33: Fresh Produce Punk Rock Hippieness

Don starts by battling Skype again while Ben gets organized. The guys shared their favorite Starbucks coffee orders, which Don takes to go in his Marco-approved ™ Contigo travel mug. While these mugs can be challenging to wash, the guys agreed that washing them (or other dishes) in the bathroom was never a good idea. Even John Gruber knows that storing dishes in the bathroom is a bad idea, as he pointed out in a recent episode of The Talk Show. Ben then went into a coffee-fuelled rant about Getting Things Done, his favorite Canadian TV series ‘The Newsroom’, The Lumineers, Bad Religion and The Wire’s Stringer Bell. Don countered with Fat Boy Slim, the Luther, Bramwell, Ripper Street, and Transmetropolitan.

After a shout-out to Renee Boyer’s Food Safety class at Virginia Tech they talked about listener Bridgette’s link to “Dear Abby - Changing baby on eatery table takes the cake” and her comment that perhaps that common sense isn’t that common at all.

Next on the agenda was a discussion of the recent CDC report on foodborne disease attribution and how fresh produce is associated with greatest amount of foodborne illness, while poultry is linked to the greatest number of deaths. Don explained how the MDP’s retail sampling results match up reasonably well with actual illness estimates, according to his crude risk assessment. Ben was looking for information on what people could do to reduce the risks, as Don recently shared on WebMD. Ben was also surprise by the amount of deaths associated with norovirus (shown in the Technical Appendix 1 of the CDC report), the majority of which are associated with nursing homes. As the guys dug deeper into the results they unearthed more questions than answers and they cautioned against blindly trusting data.  As Don learned from reading Chumbawuba liner notes.

Ben and Don then discussed the recent Food Safety News article “Does The “No Illnesses” Language Belong in Recall Notices?” and whether the wording impacts on how consumers react.

The focus then turned to the FSIS “Let's Talk Chicken” podcast. The guys found the scripted nature very difficult to connect with. Instead they found CDC’s approach in “Preparedness 101: Zombie Apocalypse” much more engaging. Don felt that passion was important in podcasting and cited the Obsession times Voice talk by Merlin Mann and John Gruber at SXSW.  Don also noted that he listens to Neutral, and his new favorite podcast, for the voice, and not the content.

In the after dark the guys chatted about using American Apparel for making T-shirts, creating Food Safety Talk Decals, iPads, Ben’s hockey obsession and 2 Little Superheroes.

Food Safety Talk 33: Fresh Produce and Punk Rock Hippieness

Food Safety Talk 32: Zombies and (Bleep)

This week the guys talked to Andreas Kiermeier (who’s been doing a yeoman’s job the show notes, i.e. the words you are reading right now).  Andreas works at the South Australian Research and Development Institute (SARDI), not be confused with Sardi's in New York City.  Andreas is into trance music, which led to a discussion of John Lennon, Portishead and Tangerine dream.  Andreas is a photographer, as shown on Flickr.  He’s the official photographer of the Adelaide Zombie Walk, which is similar to the Zombie Run in Raleigh. Andreas has published an article on the microbiology of kangaroo meat, co-authored with John Sumner of Risk Ranger fame.

The discussion then turned to the risks of using Bakelite and raw milk for making double cream; expiration dates, shelf-life and Listeria; and public libraries which Ben loves, for many reasons, among them, creating this picture. Don and Ben then dissected An In-Depth Analysis of a Piece of Shit: Distribution of Schistosoma mansoni and Hookworm Eggs in Human Stool - thanks to Chip Manuel (SeeManual) on Twitter for finding that gem!  This was followed by a brief discussion of the two recently FSMA rules on Preventive Controls and Produce, and the relationship between organic food and autism.  The show finished off with a discussion of XL foods inspections and a call back to Food Safety Talk Episode 1, and the NAS report on releasing FSIS inspected establishment data.

The after dark featured a discussion of the IAFP Annual Meeting, Crashplan - the cause of Andreas’s bad Skype connection, and Daniel Shannon (phyllisstein) on Twitter.

Food Safety Talk 32: Zombies and (bleep)

Food Safety Talk 31: The Christmas Holiday Spectacular

Ben was in a holiday mood after spending time in Florida and catching up with friend of the show, Michelle Danyluk. He also met up with Doug Powell for the annual barfblog editorial team meeting and had lunch with Bert Mitchell. The guys exchanged their holiday MP3 picks, including Sloan’s Merry X’mas Everybody and Jonathan Coulton & John Roderick’s Christmas in Jail. Some non-Christmas and non-food safety-related ramblings included The Good Lovelies, The Comic Book Club of Ithaca, Doctor Doom, Teen Titans, the comiXology app, and Saga.

The guys then talked food safety communication and Ben praised this system for restaurant inspection disclosure, as well as jurisdictional approaches (such as this one in Plano) that provide access to restaurant inspection histories. Don was excited about "Variability Among States in Investigating Foodborne Disease Outbreaks", but felt let down as there was little information about the reason for this variability. Ben and Don wondered whether it had to do with the caliber of epidemiologists – or was it related to how hard they were looking for foodborne illness problems and the things that define their food safety culture?

The discussion then turned to smartphone apps, which was prompted by Ben’s barfblog article about a soon to be released app by Food Sentry. The guys were curious about what they’d be getting for the subscription fee and how rankings were magically created, and noted that some of the information is already publically available through the FDA’s Product Recalls app and others. The serious discussion about risk rankings quickly degraded into poop-a-licious fun with the Poop the World app. While Don was a little freaked out he was pleased that the app included a hand washing reminder. Ben was wondering whether the data could be used similar to Google’s Flu Trends to identify and track food borne illness outbreaks.

The guys then talked about several food safety related papers, including a paper co-authored by Don entitled “Fate of Escherichia coli O157:H7, Listeria monocytogenes, and Salmonella on fresh-cut celery”. The second paper was “Efficacies of Sodium Hypochlorite and Quaternary Ammonium Sanitizers for Reduction of Norovirus and Selected Bacteria during Ware-Washing Operations” and Ben wondered what the implications for cleaning up after a vomiting event in a restaurant setting are (like the one Ben lived through in Episode 22). The article “Outbreaks of Acute Gastroenteritis Transmitted by Person-to-Person Contact – United States, 2009-2010” blew Don’s mind as he found at that the CDC was not tracking person-to-person transmission of acute gastroenteritis prior to implementation of the National Outbreak Reporting System (NORS) in 2009.

The guys then finished off talking about some recent Kansas City Star articles about the beef industry, especially one about problems with needle tenderised beef, as well as the recent barfblog article about a paper on food safety and social media.

Don was excited that Chuck Haas and Aamir Fazil are now listening to the podcast and he invited listeners to comment on the discussion during the show. They guys also urged listeners rate the podcast on iTunes.

In the after dark, Don told Ben about the Spaceteam app, which he wants to play with Ben and Mike Batz (like these guys). And planning a Skype call between the guys and Andreas in Australia was proving a little difficult, because of the time difference.

Food Safety Talk 31: The Christmas Holiday Spectacular

Food Safety Talk 30: What Do I Owe Them? Some Toilet Paper?

The show started with Ben struggling to get the sound right. Then guys talked about writing proposals and how Ben’s bitten off more than he can chew.

Prompted by Amy Jane Gruber’s experiences with allergies on Salt & Fat, including her allergy to chicken proteins, the conversation turned to allergy awareness and where it fits with food safety. The guys shared their own experiences – Ben’s reactions to aspirin and Don’s sons allergies and intolerances to milk and lactose.  This prompted a broader discussion of allergies, controlling allergens and cross contamination. They discussed the similarities and differences compared to microbial cross contamination. Don noted the importance of tools such as GloGerm that can provide immediate feedback to people on how cross-contamination works.

The guys then talked about the Cleveland County (NC) fair E. coli outbreak in October, for which the final investigation report had been alluded to. The report apparently (although it isn't online) identifies a number of risk factors but no definitive source. The epidemiologists considered the possibility of insect vectors contributing to the outbreak, the potential for which has previously been identified. Don recalled a 1999 paper that reported experiments on the transmission of E. coli O157:H7 by fruit flies. While this work showed the possibility of such transmission, Don questioned whether there is any epidemiological evidence to show its importance.

Then the guys moved on to antibiotic resistance of Yersinia in US pork, which was prompted by this Consumer Reports article, which was followed by this Food Safety News article. Subsequently, Don was interviewed for Food Safety News where he questioned the public health significance of the findings, as Yersinia has previously been found in pigs, though there was some evidence associating Yersinia with pork chitterlings. Ben thought that while the industry has long been managing Yersinia, the Consumer Report article has ‘unearthed’ and publicized its presence in pork, even if it’s a none-issue. Ben felt that the most important part was for industry to communicating the risks, and controls, before someone else points out the risks, such as Beth Weise in this Thanksgiving article. While the guys agreed that “science by press release” wasn’t transparent and rigorous enough, Ben looked at the bright side, namely that the article has provided an opening to discuss food safety in a broader sense.

The guys then talked about a bunch of non food safety related stuff. Don then commended Ben on his appearance on the 5by5 show "The Frequency." Don was also excited about finding out about John Roderick’s TourFoodRules. Ben thought he wouldn’t eat at a place called “Crazy Fingers” (Rules 3 & 4 combined – and it actually exists) which reminded Don of a Grateful Dead song and Ben of Fubar.

In the After Dark, Ben expressed his frustration with not finding anything in iTunes 11 and that the guys can only see the US reviews of FoodSafetyTalk. Andreas confirms that only he has submitted a review in the Australian iTunes store. Don explained the extended family’s traditional Brooklyn Christmas Eve celebration and Ben also shared his Christmas plans.

Food Safety Talk 30: What Do I Owe Them? Some Toilet Paper?

Food Safety Talk 29: In a tin can insulated with towels

The guys jumped right into the deep end and discussed the risks, or perceived risks, associated with salad bars and whether irrigation water or someone sneezing over the salad would pose a bigger risk. The guys also chatted about Don’s recent apparent food poisoning, new listeners to the podcast and Ben’s musical taste. Ben also admitted to being hooked on The Wire.

The discussion then turned to a barfblog article about research articles by Petran et al. on restaurant inspection, entitled “Health department inspection criteria more likely to be associated with outbreak restaurants in Minnesota” and “Using a theoretical predictive tool for the analysis of recent health department inspections at outbreak restaurants and relation of this information to foodborne illness likelihood”. While restaurant inspection per se may not improve public health, Petran et al. investigated whether the answers to specific inspection questions would help predict whether a given restaurant is at increased risk of a foodborne illness outbreak.  The guys specifically discussed Table 4 of the first article, available here, which looked at the risk of norovirus, Salmonella or Clostridium perfringens outbreaks as related to different inspection questions.

Ben and Don then turned their attention to the recent Multistate Outbreak of Salmonella Bredeney Infections Linked to Peanut Butter Manufactured By Sunland. This isn’t the first time that Salmonella and peanut butter caused trouble – previous examples include this this 2006/7 outbreak and this 2008/9 outbreak.  As a result of the Sunland Outbreak, IAFP will be running a webinar on Best Practices in Peanut Butter and Peanut Production. Don noted the challenge wasn’t a lack of knowledge of how to control Salmonella in peanuts, but getting the information to those who most need it.  Ben was particularly critical of companies who have testing schemes on which their food safety programs are built, but which continue to ship product despite detecting 9 different Salmonella strains. Ben also noted that denying test results is counterproductive when the epidemiological evidence is pointing at your product. A better communications approach was discussed in Food Safety Talk 25 in relation to the Salmonella outbreak linked with cantaloupe.

Don shared about his recent food poisoning in Hawaii, and noted that while foodborne outbreak investigations in Hawaii might be good, publicizing anything related to outbreaks wasn’t good for tourism. This reminded Ben of the heightened requirements for vendors at farmers markets in Hawaii. Don mentioned his dinner with Linda Harris, and her comment that the all of Hawaii fell under the Tester Amendment of the FSMA Act.

This brought to guys to an article that Don had recently reviewed, which had made him query who does the work of cooperative extension in Canada. Ben provided a bit of history and his understanding of the current situation. Ben believed that it fell mainly to the regulatory authorities, for example Wellington-Dufferin-Guelph Public Health. Don was worried that this was likely to result in important research findings not being developed into useful extension programs, especially with the influx of Canadian food safety extension specialists invading the US.

In the After Dark, Don talked a bit more about his trip to Hawaii and how he got so angry on his first night. The guys talked about their Thanksgiving plans and they finished where they started: Chick-fil-A.

Food Safety Talk 29: In a tin can insulated with towels

Food Safety Talk 28: Flaming Lips, a food safety intervention?

Don and Ben started the show with the compulsory technology discussion. The guys were excited about being up-to-date with publishing previous episodes and that the show was attracting new listeners. Don noted that any listener who would like a Food Safety Talk fridge magnet should email him. He also requested that listeners rate the show and leave a comment on iTunes.

The guys then talked about the Annual Bridge School Benefit Concert, including The Flaming Lips, and their cover of the Pink Floyd's 'The Dark Side of The Moon', She Don't Use Jelly and Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots.

The discussion then turned to the efficacy of hand washing versus hand sanitizers. A question was posed by a North Carolina extension agent and was related to the recent E. coli O157:H7 outbreak associated with animal contact at a North Carolina fair. Don noted that the CDC recommends the use of hand sanitizers in hospitals as an alternative to hand washing, although FDA does not currently recommend this in restaurants. Don mentioned his publication on the efficacy of alcohol-based hand sanitizer during frozen burger handling. Don felt that hand sanitizers would be beneficial when there are no hand washing facilities available, though he also questioned the risk of petting zoos and whether they can be made safer. Ben cautioned that sanitizers may not work equally well for all microorganisms, but that it was still a good tool in the face of low hand washing compliance. Don agreed and stressed that the important point wasn’t the comparison of efficacy between sanitizers with hand washing, but the effect on overall public health.

The guys then turned their attention to recent XL Beef related E. coli O157 outbreak and recall. Don questioned the lack of common sense when E. coli O157 is detected in many combo bins on a single day. XL Beef simply followed the apparently standard practice of rejecting the affected combo bin as well as the one before and after, despite many combo bins yielding E. coli O157 detections. Apparently nobody had realized that XL beef had hit what FSIS refer to as a High Event Period.

Ben then talked about a recent interview where he was asked about the impact of centralized food processing on food safety and public health. Ben and Don agreed that mistakes in large organizations can result in large public health problems. However, they also thought it more likely for smaller companies to screw up, because it may harder for them to stay up-to-date, and that any subsequent illnesses are more likely to fly under the public health radar, or track back to the source.

The discussion then focused on the large norovirus outbreak in Germany which was linked to frozen strawberries and Ben highlighted the finger-pointing that goes on between companies or countries at such times. While epidemiology pointed at the strawberries, the Chinese government maintained that 'No viruses [were] found' on berries blamed for food poisoning, though Ben wondered which companies were actively looking for norovirus in food.

The guys then discussed the case of a 7 year old who died after kissing her grandfather who was sick with E. coli O157. It reminded Don of the book “Poisoned” and the earlier discussion of petting zoos – a combination of increased risk, young children and potential lack of hand washing.

In the after dark the guys talked about Indiana Jones not getting tenure, Inbox Zero, Don, Michelle and Linda’s writing club and professional wrestling throws.

Food Safety Talk 28: Flaming Lips, a food safety intervention?

Food Safety Talk 27: A Bumper Crop of Fun: The Clostridium Episode

The podcast stars with a discussion of the Violet Femmes, AC/DC, Ben’s recently acquired addiction to The Wire (he’s up to Episode 6), and the reason for why Don doesn’t need to feel guilty for not doing his homework – to watch The Newsroom.

Recently, Don had a call from a consumer who had made salsa (three weeks prior) but had forgotten to add the lemon juice. She wanted to know what she could do. The guys agreed that the concern was due to Clostridium botulinum which could grow in a low-acid environment and lead to toxin outgrowth (some guidance is provided in this NDSU document) and the best option is to discard the salsa.

This reminded Ben of the judging of the home food preservation competition of the North Carolina State Fair. He explained how he’s introduced additional food safety science into the judging process – with respect to which foods to taste and alternative criteria for evaluation. Ben’s got a set of criteria he uses to determine whether to exclude products from the competition (based on whether the product comes from a tested recipe source such as NCHFP, Ball's Blue Book or USDA's Guide to Home Canning), whether to allow for tasting and ensure that recommended processing times have been used (self-reported by the participants). Judges don't taste any high risk foods (e.g. beets), and they test pH of the lower risk products. Ben reviews the competition premium book annually to ensure things are clear. Don liked Ben’s approach and encouraged him to write his process up for the Journal of Extension.

The conversation then focused on the safety of a brandied fruit starter recipe that Ben has been asked to evaluate. Given the acidity of the canned ingredients, and while E. coli O157 could be an issue, the guys agreed that the major concern is again Clostridium botulinum. In particular, Don was concerned about ‘cooks’ who don’t follow the recipe and replace canned fruit with fresh fruit or sugar with honey – both of which are likely to introduce C. botulinum into the mixture. Don cited the recent outbreak of botulism in a prison from Pruno as an example of such innovative behavior. Ben then queried the effect of refrigeration, which Don thought would have an impact on C. botulinum spores, but might also impact the fermentation. This reminded Ben of his early days in extension work when he was asked about an Amish Friendship Bread starter, which has been researched and found to present little risk if done properly.

The conversation the shifted to cooking and serving large amounts of chili, as Ben had been asked about food safety considerations for a chili supper fundraiser. Ben put the organizers in touch with the local environmental health officers to make sure they comply with the necessary regulations. In addition, he provided them with some information about how to achieve rapid cooling (and why it was important). While doing his research for this question he found an article on Clostridium perfringens during cooling in commercial chili. Don has been involved in similar extension work on roast beef for which he used this FSIS Appendix B. In addition, Don noted that for many practical applications the ComBase Perfringens Predictor is a great tool.

The guys made a fleeting comment about the current XL beef E. coli O157 outbreak, which they may discuss more next time.

Food Safety Talk 27: A Bumper Crop of Fun: The Clostridium Episode

Food Safety Talk 26: We’re out of the lag phase!

Ben and Don started the podcast with a discussion about Lego. Ben has finally started his homework – watching Episode 1 from Season 1 of The Wire. This evolved into a discussion of music, including Tom Waits, Neil and Pegi Young’s Annual Bridge School Benefit Concert and the Kronos Quartet. Then Don had little Skype hiccup, which turned out to be pibcak.

The guys then turned their attention to food safety and Don started it off with a mention of Back to Work, Episode 85: "Schrödinger's Soap Holder", which focused on safely navigating a public restroom with or without hot water, soap and paper towels. After a short sports excursion, including a walk down “No-Hockey Lane” (which apparently had Michele Catalano fired up) the guys found their unique spiritual connection… through peanut butter, but not jelly.  Andreas suggested Aussie Rules in the event there is no hockey.

The discussion then focused on the current peanut butter related illness outbreak and related recalls. Ben wondered allowed how a regulatory agency might determine the period of production that is to be recalled. Don guessed that it was related to the company being able to document the last comprehensive cleanup. A potential difficulty for this relates to the use of rework, as seen with the ever-expanding Hudson beef recall. While knowing how recall decisions are made may not be of interest to everyone, but Ben noted that this information would be useful to other companies who face recall decisions in the future.

Ben then asked about the magnitude of the risk of Salmonella in peanut butter as he hadn’t seen any published risk assessment. Don guessed that it was low (relative to many types of produce) because the Microbiological Data Program 2009 data summary didn’t show any Salmonella detections in 1542 peanut butter samples. Don then raised the issue that the MDP recalls were never or rarely linked to outbreaks. He was particularly interested in this because of an upcoming talk he was preparing, in which he combined prevalence estimates from the MDP 2009 data, under-reporting estimates from the Scallan et al article, and a rough dose-response estimate. Don’s reasoning indicates that it’s not surprising that the MDP program would result in detections (and hence recalls) that aren’t linked to outbreaks.

Using the example of cilantro, which had many detections of Salmonella reported in the 2009 MDP data, Ben noted that he would really like to know more about where and how the hazard is introduced into the product. Don then suggested that a better way of reporting the MDP results would be to report the positive rate, rather than just the number of positives, as clearly the denominator is important.

Ben then mentioned the current large norovirus outbreak in Germany, where more than 8400 children have shown symptoms. Ben hypothesized that it might be related to water in a fresh produce washing and packing plant.  Turns out he might just be right since frozen strawberries have now been implicated. Ben wasn’t sure whether a surveillance program like the MDP would ever detect viruses in fresh produce, and while he accepted the utility of the MDP he was also sure that it could be improved.

Ben then discussed his recent experience of visiting Jeanne Gleeson, Barb Chamberlain and their army of programmers, who produced Ninja Kitchen. He was talking to them about producing stop motion animations to illustrate how and where hazards are introduced into the fresh produce supply chain – from farm to the consumer. Ben is keen on using these for educational presentations to producers as well as consumers shopping at farmers markets. This reminded Don of the norovirus cross-contamination modeling work his student Di Li is working on, and also the excellent videos of Jim Mann from Hand washing for Life.

Then Don offered to send a free FoodSafetyTalk.com fridge magnet/thermometer to listeners who contact him via email or Twitter. He’s also using them for distribution at MaxFunCon East with the aim of increasing listener numbers, which has just exited the equivalent of the bacterial lag phase.

In the After Dark Ben announced that he was going to watch some more of The Wire and then proceeded to assign Don some homework – to watch Canadian TV Series "The Newsroom".

Food Safety Talk 26: We're Out Of The Lag Phase!

Food Safety Talk 25: Two Little Super Heroes, Mangoes and Cantaloupes

The guys started the show with the usual technobabble. Ben explained the history of barfblog and the reason for the recent server switch. He also mentioned the attack on GoDaddy by Anonymous – possibly because of the elephant shooting and their support of SOPA – which affected 1.5 million websites, including barfblog and Dani’s new mommy-blog. The guys counseled listeners not to piss off the Anonymous or WikiLeaks people.

Don then talked about his recent radio appearance to talk about the Stanford meta-analysis on the safety of organic and conventional foods. Don complained how a Google search on the topic resulted in a large number of media publications, but except for the New York Times article, none provided information to help track down the original publication. Eventually he found the original article, and in his quest to find work on microbial food safety of organic food he then tracked down a couple of papers by Francisco Diez-Gonzalez. But Don’s key message during the radio interview was that people shouldn’t worry about the safety of conventional versus organic, but instead focus on eating fruits and vegetables, because they are healthy.

Ben then talked about the ambiguity in the Stanford press release, such as “there isn’t much difference between organic and conventional foods, if you’re an adult and making a decision based solely on your health.” Maybe that’s why some people took this paper as evidence that organic foods were better. Nevertheless, Ben liked the conclusion that “this is information that people can use to make their own decisions based on their level of concern about pesticides, their budget and other considerations.” Don thought that for the majority of people it was more beneficial to buy more fruit and vegetables than to buy the expensive ones.

Ben still hasn’t started his homework – watching The Wire. But at least he’s done The Wire personality test – just to find out he’s “Snot Boogie.”

Ben then recalled the discussion from last podcast and how washing cantaloupe increased the probability of pathogen spread. Michelle Danyluk commented to the guys that she believe it was retail stores who required washing. Ben wondered whether the buyers knew about the risk of washing. Don strongly doubted it as people probably thought that not washing is riskier, because they don’t consider cross-contamination and because they use sanitizer. That said, Don did wonder whether producers really understood and had verified the efficacy of their systems. Ben recalled that as part of the T-GAP program in Florida the field packing of tomatoes has been outlawed, and he was concerned that this would likely result in producers to choose to wash tomatoes.

Mike Batz’ tweeted about CDC having made MMWR available online for 1952-1982. Don fondly recalled the only enjoyable bit of his first undergraduate microbiology class where the professor would read them an “MMWR bedtime story.” The guys reminisced about the stories in MMWR 1(1) and how far technology had come – unlike then we can now often find the cause of an outbreak.

Don then followed up a comment on norovirus on cruise ships (last episode) that Andreas had left them in the show notes. Craig Hedburg had previously shared with Don that while people shed norovirus for a long time they only spread it when they have active diarrhea. Don also noted that infection via hands touching infected objects, such as door knobs and railings, was less likely than infection via direct ingestion (as a result of cross contamination at the self serving bar).

Ben then recalled a conversation with Richard Sprenger, who runs the training company Highfield, in Dubai last year. In particular, Richard had said that full implementation of HACCP at retail would require elimination of outside contamination sources as much as possible, but doing so would reduce sales. Hence, any retailer wanting to remain in business had to weigh up the risk and benefits of eliminating all potential contamination sources. This then prompted a short discussion about various risk-benefit tradeoffs that retailers would have to consider all the time – though Don prefers those who err on the side of caution.

The discussion then turned to the large foodborne illness outbreak associated with Mexican mangoes, which has now resulted in various product recalls. Don talked about a hypothetically bitchy email from an unnamed colleague, which sparked a discussion about outbreaks and recalls and how they do and don’t occur together. Don recalled this USDA report about a green onion related hepatitis A outbreak and the associated economic impacts on Mexican producers with various degrees of GAP implementations. In particular, it showed that those doing the right things were less impacted, if at all. Ben then stressed the need for all producers to demonstrate how they were doing the right things, which was, at least partially, in response to a Huffington Post article on the requirements placed on organic producers.

The conversation then turned to the difficulty of good risk communication in the face of an outbreak. In particular, Don recalled his recent ‘deer in the headlights’ moment when he was asked how he would advise Chamberlain Farms to communicate with the associated press after the link between patients and isolates found on Chamberlain Farm fields had been confirmed. Luckily, Doug Powell and Ben managed to save Don by providing some well thought out words.

Ben finished off with some information about a workshop he delivered to producers on how to recover from a recall or outbreak. In particular, he recalled a retail representative comment on how they make decisions about whether they continue to buying from a supplier after an outbreak – they base it on how the supplier reacts and communicates and whether they know what they are doing.

In the after dark the guys reminisced about Alf and Don also found a Frank Zappa on the toilet picture online, in memory of Doug writing his words of wisdom in the dunny.

Food Safety Talk 25: Two Little Super Heroes, Mangoes And Cantaloupes

Food Safety Talk 24: Bagel tongs for twenty, Bob!

Today’s guest was Mike Batz, um, Joe Smith, who Skyped in from a hotel room while emptying the mini bar. Ben still hasn’t done his homework from last Season – watching The Wire. And to Mike's disappointment Ben hasn’t even watched The Lego Wire. The discussion then turned to playing with Lego, Ben’s vandalism activities as a teenager, craft paper maze making, Dungeons and Dragons and The Wire characters' D&D alignment.

The guys then got serious about food safety and discussed the Salmonella Typhimurium outbreak that CDC has linked to cantaloupes. At the time of the recording, the FDA hadn’t specifically commented on the potential source, though Chamberlain Farms had begun recalling cantaloupes. The guys thought it was strange that no FDA/CDC update on the situation has been issued for days and the overall lack of communication around this outbreak. However, Don noted that the lawyers are getting their ducks lined up and Bill Marler had already blogged about a lawsuit. Don asked Ben whether there is ever a right time to say nothing in a case like this. Ben didn’t think there was, but suggested that there was a right time to say “we’re uncertain” instead. He recalled the discussion mentioned in FST episode 6 about an outbreak of E. coli O157:H7 associated with the North Carolina State Fair, where the North Carolina Division of Public Health updated the information of what was known on a daily basis. Ben thought that this was better than the five-day cone-of-silence.

Mike was bothered by regulators implicating a whole growing region or commodity rather than naming the implicated farm, especially since the farm had already initiated a recall. It reminded him of what happened to Florida tomato growers a few years ago. Mike pointed out that implicating a whole region does not provide any incentive to an individual farmer to follow GAPs and do the right thing – since a neighbor who doesn’t do the right thing could wipe out all that effort.

In contrast, the Burch Farms recall, which was initiated after Listeria was detected on cantaloupes, but without an outbreak having occurred, did not result in the same level of concern. But Ben noted that the Burch Farms recall nevertheless resulted in questions being raised by buyers and cancellations of contracts, and as such the recall still impacted on the whole industry.

Don noted the fundamental differences between Listeria and Salmonella. He reminded the guys that the risk depends on the dose and that the dose-response relationship differs between the two organisms. Ben also noted the problem of applying a zero tolerance standard for ready-to-eat-foods to these agricultural commodity products, and Don highlighted the need for quantification when testing in addition to simple presence/absence testing.

Ben then explained the differences in the post harvest systems between California, where cantaloupes are not washed, compared to North Carolina, where cantaloupes are regularly washed. He noted that the use of water might provide an opportunity for cross contamination, which Don totally agreed with. The discussion then turned to Ben explaining that cantaloupes are washed because that’s what the industry has always done, though his experience indicates that farmers might be open to re-engineering their processes.

Don then produced a smorgasbord of potential topics for discussion and the guys settled on a 2002 blog post by John Gruber about Bagel Tongs on Fedora Review. In the article Gruber worried about bagels and that the “tong-arms are covered with some sort of moist, brown sediment.” Ben agreed with Gruber and would rather use tissue paper to pick up the bagels, though mainly because he feared contracting Norovirus from the tong handles. Don agreed with Ben that it’s not the crap at the end of the tongs, but the crap you can’t see that’s the problem. He also recalled that some cruise liners have a norovirus risk reduction measure, which involves staff serving passengers at the self-serve buffet on the first three days of the cruise.

Ben then reminisced about his high school days, when he wasn’t vandalizing his neighbors’ backyards but when he was working in a bulk food store. He had to clean and sanitize the scoop on a weekly basis, though he actually did this only when the prunes got really gunky. He never sanitized the handles – got to hold on to something while washing the scoop. Mike thought that the epidemiological evidence, that placed Ben at the epicenter of foodborne illness outbreaks, was building.

The show finished by Don telling the guys about wanting to order some Food Safety Talk promotional refrigerator temperature sensing magnets for inclusion in the MaxFunCon EAST show bags.

By now Mike Joe had sobered up somewhat and was eyeing the Arrogant Bastard that he’d been contemplating and this evolved into a broader discussion of alcohol consumption patterns.

In the after dark the guys talked about a range of “stuff” including Mike’s five-day FAO/WHO meeting bender on foodborne parasites in Rome.

Food Safety Talk 24: Bagel tongs for twenty, Bob!

Food Safety Talk 23: Hello? Hello? Stalkers? Or closing the barn door after stepping on the cat

Season 2 kicked off with the introduction of special guest stalker Chip Manuel who joined the guys from the Dan Benjamin style box in Ben’s office to provide a student perspective of IAFP.

The discussion started with an IAFP meeting round-up, including some discussion of the official app (iPhone or Android) and why Ben was hiding from his ‘stalkers.’ Chip and Ben both loved how the app gave them the schedule in the pocket, but noted a few minor annoyances. Don was pleasantly surprised how many people at the meeting had used the app.

At IAFP, Chip chaired the student Professional Development Group (PDG) and helped organize the student luncheon, at which Don presented. Don felt somewhat unloved, since none of the students came up to him during the conference to say “Hi” afterward (even after offering free drinks), but Chip questioned why Don hadn’t joined the students at Karaoke. Ben didn’t have the same problem as Don, so maybe students are intimidated because Don is the IAFP president. However, Ben felt that there were few non-students to mix with during the IAFP Student Mixer and maybe a speed networking between students and professionals will take place next year.

Ben didn’t go to any symposia or round-tables unless he was presenting in them, because he concentrated on the technical talks to find really new, fresh and interested things. Don noted that the “clicker” audience feedback was really useful and Ben enjoyed the clickers from a speaker’s perspective as it helped shape the talks on the fly.

The guys then explored their paranoia for double booking themselves for talks. This reminded Ben of a talk he gave on “Using multiple media and messages to create and foster a good food safety culture” in Tennessee. After the talk he was stumped by an audience question about a rumor that Ben had floated his Fanny down the Ganny, which was related to a festival in Port Hope.

The discussion then turned to follow up. Ben forgot his homework to watch “The Wire” as he’d been watching the Olympics. The conversation turned to the Olympics and sports more broadly and Ben recalled some watching a women’s soccer game  while working at a bar.

Related to the vomit incident discussed in the previous podcast, third biggest fan, Mike Roberson sent a message asking whether Ben offered some food safety suggestions with Swiss Chalet. Ben noted that he hadn’t, but that it would involve sectioning off the contaminated area and avoiding moving contaminated mops, buckets and staff back into the kitchen area. This led to Chip providing some information about his scientific background and his current work on Norovirus nested PCR assays with Lee-Ann Jaykus. Chip agreed with Ben’s approach for dealing with the vomit incident. In particular he mentioned the importance of separating the clean-up from food preparation and also the need to use validated decontaminants to inactivate Norovirus.

The guys the explored their scientific family trees. In particular, Chip’s scientific grandfather is Martin Videman, which makes Karl Batt his scientific great-grandfather and Myron Solberg is great-great grandfather.

Ben then raised an issue he became aware of as part of his involvement with North Caroline Fresh Produce Safety Taskforce. Listeria monocytogenes had been found on cantaloupes though MDP surveillance, though no illnesses had been reported. Product was tracked back to Burch farm and cantaloupes were recalled over a number of days. Ben posed some questions about what such a recall says about production practices, especially in comparison to the Jensen’s farm outbreak last year. He also wondered whether cantaloupes were in a different risk category compared to other fresh produce. Don thought that Listeria would be found on other fresh produce and that cantaloupes clearly are a risk (as seen from last year’s outbreak – though there were apparently a number of processing issues). But at the same time he cautioned that to understand the risk better one would need to know the levels and how growth of Listeria might occur. Chip hadn’t found much Listeria in soil as part of his Master’s Thesis, despite Listeria having been reported as “ubiquitous” in soil. However, this discrepancy may be related to specificity issues with the diagnostic methods previously used, such as the simplified Henry technique. Ben felt that cantaloupes, and watermelon, do belong into their own risk category as they are grown on the ground, but unlike other produce they are eaten raw and can support the growth once they are cut. In addition, after cutting they are often stored for a number of days at temperatures that will promote the growth of Listeria.

The FDA had described Burch farm as having unsanitary conditions, but Don questioned whether other farms would actually be similar and whether this is in fact a risk factor for a fresh produce farm. Don then wondered whether it’s “blaming consumers” when the increase in risk comes from the practices in the home, i.e. storage, temperature and handling. And what is the solution to this? Is it the farmer’s or retailers responsibility to produce a Listeria-free cantaloupe or would an education campaign on proper storage and usage be more effective? And what would that proper storage be? Don also floated his pipe dream of retailers being able to avoid recalling food products because they are doing an excellent job at educating their consumers (of the risks). Chip found it interesting that all five Listeria isolates stored as part of the MDP program, were linked to human isolates on PulseNet and he wondered what would happen for this recall.

Don then gave kudos to Evan Henke for some cryptic tweets that managed to confuse Mike Batz. He also recalled how impressed he was when he shopped at Shaw’s supermarket, because they provided wipes for sanitizing hands and shopping cart handles. He was even more impressed by the public food safety announcement in the store that color was not an indication of doneness.  Ben then recalled some work by Sandy McCurdy on emotion-based messaging in retail stores for thermometer usage.

The guys then discussed three pieces of Don’s follow up. First was an article on eco-contamination in hotel rooms from which Ben learned not to lick the light switch or TV remote, though noodling for catfish seems to be OK. The guys then discussed an article by Dr David Acheson on the intersection of food safety and politics, which reminded Ben of Creekstone’s request for 100% BSE testing. But Don warned of the danger that regulators need to watch out for, namely that increased food safety standards aren’t used as non-tariff trade barriers. The final piece of follow up related to the discussion in the last podcasts on visual inspection of chicken carcasses. The guys are still wondering how an inspector can see anything on a chicken carcass that they have a third of a second to thoroughly examine and Don got grumpy at the chicken processor who didn’t want to be responsible for the food safety of the chicken he produces.

The guys finished off with a quick chat about their crazy upcoming travel schedules. Ben mentioned his involvement in the development of a ‘video game’ for farmers markets, which reminded Don of testing the beta version of Ninja Kitchen.

Food Safety Talk 23: Hello? Hello? Stalkers? Or closing the barn door after stepping on the cat

Food Safety Talk 22 – Gut demons, miniature blood Nazis, vampire nanobots and scientific reviewers

The guys started with the usual technical problems but this time they were self-inflicted rather than Skype induced.

Don started off by talking about FSIS Risk Assessment for Guiding Public Health-Based Poultry Slaughter Inspection, which he is currently reviewing. The risk assessment is part of FSIS’ attempt to modernize their meat inspection system. Despite the introduction of HACCP in the mid 90’s, the current system relies on inspecting every carcass for visually observable contamination, obviously missing microbiological contamination, like in Gary Larson’s “Early microbiologists.” The risk assessment was undertaken to assess whether allowing FSIS personnel to undertake off-line inspection verification activities would result in reductions (or at least no increase) in the occurrence of Salmonella or Campylobacter on finished poultry carcasses.

The risk assessment is largely based on a data rich and complicated regression model, which attempts to model the prevalence of Salmonella or Campylobacter from different types of inspections activities. While ultimately nothing is clear-cut, the risk assessment does indicate that moving inspectors from on-line inspection to more risk-based off-line activities will not result in more foodborne illness. However, the coding system used in the risk assessment was turning Don into 'grumpy pants' and reminded Ben of Bingo, and it shows an apparent communication disconnect between those undertaking the modeling and those writing up the risk assessment.

The conversation then turned to FSMA and the delay in the regulations. Ben’s worried that some companies may be holding off on undertaking certain activities until the regulations come out. For example, he thinks that some business may be holding off on training staff until the training standards are better defined. Both agreed that concern for food safety and public health didn’t stop due to the lack of regulations and that any effort expended in planning and thinking about food safety is not wasted. Don is hopeful that even if the FSMA is repealed that the good ideas in FSMA will not be lost, and neither will the activities of the Food Safety Preventative Control Alliance be wasted.

Since the last podcast, Don had been to his favorite restaurant, Moosewood in Ithaca, NY while Ben started his visit to Canada with a trip to Tim Hortons to bask in the Canadian ambiance and slang, such as beauty and giver, eh? Ben also went to Swiss Chalet with his mom and dad. When a child on a nearby table  vomited, Ben’s neurotic father wanted to know whether they should move. But Ben assured him that they were OK, having ulterior motives in mind. One of the kitchen staff then came out of the kitchen to clean up the vomit with a bucket, mop and some cleaning cloths, before disappearing back into the kitchen, clearly not following CDC’s guidelines for cleaning up vomit. Ben was of course aware of the risks associated with airborne Norovirus infection as shown by his Food Safety Info Sheet and his careful reading this article. But he wanted to see how the restaurant handled the cleanup, even at the risk of his own heath and that of his parents!

On the social media front, Don recommended that Ben follow Michele Catalano and John Roderick (from Roderick on the Line) on Twitter. Don was totally in awe of Mike Batz’s Twitter-awesomeness when Mike replied to John’s tweet about the bactericidal effects of coffee with “Coffee kills gut demons, miniature blood Nazis, and vampire nanobots. But not milk devils. Everybody knows this.” Ben is again trying to engage more on Twitter, but he wasn’t impressed with McDonald’s Executive Chef’s video on how to do a Big Mac at home.

The guys then discussed scientific writing. Despite Don’s best efforts he can’t get his students to write better, though maybe collaboration with Michelle Danyluk on “How to write a paper that won’t piss off your advisor” might help. He’d even be happy if students learned to use a reference manager like Sente. Ben is trying out some advice he’d received from Gord Surgeoner during his graduate studies – with a bit of luck it’ll earn him some beers.

While Don is generally happy with his own scientific writing he wasn’t happy with the reviewer of his recent JFP manuscript entitled “Issues to consider when setting intervention targets with limited data for low-moisture food commodities: A peanut case study” which arose out of an ILSI North America sponsored meeting. The reviewer thought that the approach was very simplified and not novel enough. He clearly didn’t understand the complexities of making decisions from limited data – something the smartest people in this field in the country struggled with.

Finally, the guys got excited about the upcoming IAFP meeting, for which Don had done an IAFP webinar for students and IAFP meeting first timers, which was all about how to meet people. Don also offered to a buy a beverage of choice for any listener who mentions to podcast to Don at the IAFP meeting. 

Food Safety Talk 22: Gut demons, miniature blood Nazis, vampire nanobots and scientific reviewers

Food Safety Talk 21: Food Safety Consultant to Apple Nerds

The guys are still having some problems with Skype though maybe some of it is related to Don hitting the permanent mute button.

Don prepared for his colonoscopy with the Suprep innards-cleansing purple sponge kit. He couldn’t stomach the diarrhea inducing preparation and Ben thought he could have achieved the same effect with some of Lee-Ann Jaykus’ fecal-harvested norovirus. But Don longs for a magic pill instead of eating poop (or drinking Suprep).

The discussion then turned to the inter-relations between food safety, social networking and the Internet. Don explained that the Internet was an interconnected series of tubes invented by Al Gore. This surprised Ben. Don then briefly detoured by reminiscing about the dinner he and Kristin had with Merlin Mann at the House of Prime Rib while on a trip to San Francisco, where the WWDC Apple nerds overlapped with the ASM micro nerds. This led to the story how Dan Benjamin asked Don to talk some food safety sense into Andy Ihnatko and Dave Nanian.  This inspires Don to proclaim himself food safety consultant to the Apple nerds, truly a golden god.

Bill Marler retweeted a reference to Don’s post on barfblog about hand-washing which received some criticism from a be-sandeled curmudgeon for lack of credit. Maybe he could use The Malcolm Gladwell Book Generator which (essentially) made Don an overnight Internet semi-celebrity thanks to a re-tweet by Merlin Mann.

When Ben (finally) got a word in he thought it was important to contribute to the food safety conversation on the Internet and for food professionals to know what is being talked about. Ben’s biggest challenge is finding the best way to engage with all the various social media outlets. Ben believes that people are only trusted if others can see they are real – such as Bill Marler as compared to USDA live tweet session about food safety “Ask Karen.”

While Ben and Doug’s twitter feeds are clearly food safety related, Don felt that his own was more random, such as asking Jesse Thorn for a link to the audio file for Jesse’s classic interview with Dick Dale. Don also uses Twitter as an outlet for his frustrations with a life in academe, but he was also curious about trying to socially engage random strangers reporting vomiting, diarrhea and food poisoning. Ben monitors some of these terms with TweetDeck, though he may switch to Hibari. Ben also pitched Lee-Ann on the idea of a team of graduate students engaging with those who are already reading and talking about foodborne illnesses and outbreaks as part of the NoroCore project.

Don recounted his recent appearance on Dr. Radio, a satellite radio show hosted by nutritionist Samantha Heller. He gave the podcast a plug, though the causal link with the growth in the FST podcast listenership is unknown.  Don did note that about 40% of blog traffic was thanks to links from barfblog. The guys were grateful to those who had left reviews, including Mike Batz, who struggles with multiple twitter personalities.

While Don knew that the guys from Car Talk were retiring, he found out from Jesse Thorn about a post written by Ira Glass about what public radio shows should do with the slot and the response to it. The success of Car Talk reminded Don of John Gruber and Merlin Mann’s South by Southwest Interactive 2009 talk about building a blog to be proud of. All you need is Obsession + Topic + Voice, something the guys are striving to perfect.

Another opportunity for a podcast plug will be Don’s IAFP webinar on “Making the Most of Your IAFP Annual Meeting: Tips for Students and First-Timers” Tuesday, 10 July 2012, 9:00 AM - 10:00 AM (Central Time). Ben recalled FST Episode 0 (on StoryCorps) and their first IAFP meeting experiences. The guys then talked about what they do and don’t do at conferences. This includes leaving sessions if they are bored.

Finally, the discussion turned to music and Ben shared that wishes he was food safety’s Neil Young. Don agreed that Neil Young’s Americana was amazing, but that he hasn’t quite got into Sloan, like Ben and Merlin.

Food Safety Talk 21: Food Safety Consultant to Apple Nerds

Food Safety Talk 20: I’m not worried about eating my own poop!

The guys’ problems with Skype continue, though it’s unclear whether it’s because of Skype not ringing the bell or due to their own fault (e.g. when Don mutes himself).

Ben’s trip to Rochester for the filming of a show of Second Opinion was cool as Ben was able to talk to his heart’s content rather having to limit him to small sound bites. The show’s theme was the E. coli O157 outbreak in 2006 involving spinach and it will screen in Rochester probably sometimes this summer and nationally in fall. Apparently the show stems from a journal club, run by University of Rochester Medical Centre, which aimed at providing a scientific discussion of some of the fictitious causes presented on TV shows, such as ER and House. Ben also managed some significant carb loading thanks to the coffee and donuts he got from Tim Horton’s, while spotting Sarah Palin from his hotel room. Or was that Russia? Or Canada?

Ben’s carb loading is continuing thanks to the delicious cookies that Dani had made thanks to a recipe she found on Pinterest. Though Don’s feeling left out, because he doesn’t know anything about this ‘Tumblr for the non-nerds’.

Michael Batz was mentioned half a dozen times (in a row) to acknowledge him for the wonderful review of the podcast he had left on iTunes. So join Mike Batz and Evan Henke – Don’s star pupil who really gets QMRA – to leave a review on iTunes – whether good or bad – though we obviously prefer good. The guys are always open to feedback, as seen by their efforts after Merlin Mann provided some pointers.

Then the conversation turned to hand washing, which is of interest to some of the CSA (community supported agriculture) organizations that Ben has been working with. But, Don’s rant was set off by an article in The Forecaster entitled “In tepid water: Many fast-food restaurants don't comply with Maine health requirement”, shared by Doug Powell. In particular, Dr. Stephen Sears, Maine State Epidemiologist, assertion that using cool water for hand washing is putting the public at greater risk than using warm water. Don tried to think about the scientific justification, though he couldn’t come up with any. It couldn’t really be because of the soap, as camp suds work well in cold water. So maybe it’s a comfort thing, but that is surely a cultural preference as noted by their friend Bobby Krishna from Dubai. But then Ben remembered the Chili’s Salmonella outbreak where lack of warm water had something to do with the outbreak … or was it a lack of water altogether?  As expected, Ben is opposed to putting someone else’s poop into his mouth, but strangely enough he seemed rather comfortable ingesting his own.

Don goes on to note: he would have been more interested in the availability of paper towels and soap, unobstructed hand wash sinks. Or maybe inspectors should be checking more critical things such as burger temperature or cold holding temperature? And just because the tap can give you 110˚F (43.3˚C) doesn’t mean that employees wash their hands with it (if at all). As the Michaels et al. and Todd et al. reviews have showed, water temperature had no impact on the efficacy of hand washing. While the journalist wrote that “There are no statistics that demonstrate how many illnesses are caused by improper hand washing,” the guys were quick to point out that Guzewich and Ross’s article “Evaluation of Risks Related to Microbiological Contamination of Ready-to-eat Food by Food Preparation Workers and the Effectiveness of Interventions to Minimize Those Risks” refutes that point. Don finished his rant by suggesting that a better story would be to write about the lack of resource for public health people to inspect restaurants every year (provided they look for the things that matter).  Let the record show that eventually Don did write a barfblog post on this topic.

The guys then swung around to another liquid – raw milk – which sent Ben off on a tirade on effective, or more precisely ineffective, risk communication. The offending article was “Education needed to show why pasteurization is needed for milk” in Ag Weekly, which epitomizes bad risk communication. The guys agreed that there were many reasons for why people drink raw milk, e.g. “Motivation for Unpasteurized Milk Consumption in Michigan, 2011” and that it was critical to present the risk, but to let the consumer decide whether the potential or perceived benefits outweigh the risk. Ben pointed out a good example of risk communication that was demonstrated by the recent CDC ad campaign, which showed the consequences of smoking but didn’t tell you that smoking is not safe, though Don hadn’t watched any ads since getting TiVo.

Don is still flabbergasted that educated people don’t understand that zero tolerance does not mean zero risk! Don reflected on why a lawyer upset him after he presented at Washington DC meeting “The Future of Performance Standards in Food Safety: Innovation Ahead?” The lawyer was indignant that she had to defend a company that made pig ear dog treats, which had made people sick as she felt that it was the consumer who was to blame for having a pet or for mishandling the dog treat. Don disagrees with blaming consumers, unless they do some really stupid stuff. In fact, pet treats have been associated with human illness on a regular basis, whether they be pig ears or beef pizzles (here’s what a pizzle is), likely due to lack of hand washing after handling the treat. The guys noted the need for producers to understand how people are using their products (irrespective of whether they are pet treats or human food products) and the risk associated with the actual use, rather than just the intended use.

Don had a great time at MaxFunCon, because it made him feel awesome, and possibly because it made Mike Batz jealous. In winding up, a huge shout out went to Dr. Andreas Kiermeier from SARDI who’s volunteered to doing the show notes. He’ll be one of the first ones, right after Mike Batz, to get a T-Shirt once Don gets the T-shirt idea out of Omnifocus.

In the after-dark, the guys work through their difficulties with finding a suitable time for recording the next podcast, which was exacerbated by Don’s plans to see Steven Wright live. Don found a new Safari extension called TabLinks by Brett Terpstra to save many of the links they discuss in the Dropbox shared folder to help Andreas with the show notes. The guys said good-bye and Ben went to the pool with his kids and Don went to do a Friends of Scouting presentation at a Boy Scouts meeting.

Food Safety Talk 20: I’m not worried about eating my own poop!

Food Safety Talk 19: Not Here Today

The guys start the podcast with their usual technological discussion. Skype was again the opening topic, as Don found out that the old Skype remains installed when the new Skype is installed (at least on the Mac). Ben then reminisced about his Commodore C64, which eventually was replaced with a 386. Don remember how fast the 386 was compared the 286, though he used mainframe computers with a line editor (probably similar to vi) to type up papers for Joe Regenstein’s food science course.

The discussion became more personal when Don shared his recent endoscopy experience. While most of the hospital staff seemed to know the value of the Checklist Manifesto (which the guys discussed in Episode 12), Don wondered whether he should have written “Not here today!” on one of his body parts. Don was particularly excited to find out that he had a Helicobacter pylori infection (asymptomatic).

It didn’t take Ben long to get over his jealousy and find out lots about H. pylori, thanks to Wikipedia (which is never wrong). Don’s feeling of being special quickly dissipated when Ben told him that H. pylori infection is the most widespread infection worldwide.

Ben then had some follow up on barfblog on a Salmonella Paratyphi B outbreak linked to tempeh which the guys discussed in Episode 18 – Bunkum. The update was that pathogen was found in the starter culture the outbreak is not a result of a sanitary deficiency of the tempeh producer. However, the guys were wondering why there haven’t been other illness reports given the widespread distribution. This information around this outbreak has helped Ben gather his thoughts about the FSMA for a recent meeting at Oklahoma State University's Food and Ag Product Center organized by Chuck Willoughby and the potential benefits of asking suppliers about their risk reduction measures.

But even the best intentions in product labelling doesn’t indemnify the producer nor guarantee appropriate product use as shown in the recent outbreak associated with tuna scrape which was used for sushi.

Ben’s research into the etymology of 'bunkum' led him to Wiktionary (which is also never wrong) and he managed to really impress Dani (his wife).

Ben also reported on discussions at a recent North Carolina Commission for Public Health meeting in relation to the adoption of the FDA Food Code. The food code would remove the requirement to sell burgers cooked if requested by a customer – provided the risks are explained. This led to a discussion on whether consumer advisory disclosures, including labels, really conveys the risk to the consumer and whether they can make appropriate and informed decisions.

Don recalled the traps with compliance, which led New Jersey to be the laughing stock of the nation in 1992 for not allowing the serving of undercooked eggs, which led Johnny Carson (not Jay Leno) to comment “there's something wrong with a state in which you can buy an Uzi but there's a 10-day waiting period to get a Caesar salad."

Don also wondered what compliance with handwashing requirements would really look like?

The guys wondered whether there are other companies who’s food safety culture is ingrained enough to steer high risk customers to less risky products. Ben asked whether Subway would ever advise pregnant woman against consuming cold sandwiches containing deli meats because of Listeria risks.

Don then had a long rant about cross-contamination and viruses, after reading this Microbe Magazine article, which led him to this JAM article. It highlights the importance of microbial transmission between surfaces, which Don’s grad student Dane is also currently writing up.

Don and Ben discussed this Journal of Infectious Disease article, from which Don concluded that food storage containers should not been stored in the bathroom. Ben’s correspondence with one of the author’s, 'epi-god' Bill Keene, confirmed that the Norovirus outbreak had nothing to with the fact that the bag was reusable.

Don used dick fingers when he referred to work on the risks associated with reusable bags. The guys concluded with a discussion of the term “infectious dose” which makes Don’s want to reach through the computer screen and slap them, preferably with the median infectious dose (LD50).

Ben found Canadian band Cuff the Duke on Spotify, which Don though sounded like a dirty sex-thing, but is actually a hockey term for pulling the goalie.

Food Safety Talk 19: Not Here Today