Food Safety Talk 76: Get 'em really hot

This episode starts with a discussion of Ben’s taste in music, and then quickly moves into documentaries. Ben recently watched Jodorowsky’s Dune, on Don’s recommendation.  This documentary has some ‘artful nudity’ that leads to a discussion of perverts on airplanes and the appropriateness of reading material such as Fifty Shades of Grey while crammed into an airplane seat.  The conversation naturally transitioned into a discussion of microphone stands and coffee. Ben notes that owning a Nespresso machine has changed his life; he ranks it among his top 10 life changing things (including his wife and children). The guys then discuss other pop-culture topics including Deflate-Gate and TV shows The Affair, Portlandia (which had an episode satirizing raw milk), and Garfunkel and Oates. Note that Portlandia is required viewing before attending IAFP 2015 in Portland this summer

Ben leads off the actual food safety talk by mentioning sprouts and the number of outbreaks associated with them.  The guys then discuss experiments to validate sprout cooking processes including charred bean sprouts.  Ben then brings up the idea of baking cookies in a car and a visit from Linda Harris (who now downloads and listens).  From there the talk turns to pathogen reduction validations for baking processes spurred by the Wegmans recall of baked fruit desserts last summer, presumably because they contained peaches recalled for Listeria.

The FDA’s Reportable Food Registry, along with CDC whole genome sequencing of pathogens, is enabling more illnesses to be linked to products, as seen in Salmonella Braenderup linked to nut butter.  Ben predicts more businesses will have to issue recalls because of validation issues, and the investigations that accompany these recalls will isolate pathogens from within facilities that can be linked to other illnesses which have occurred over months and years prior.

The discussion then turns to the very bad blizzard that New Jersey never had.  Don discusses the similarities between the models for weather forecasting and models in food safety.   Both situations have consequences for over or under reacting; both present risk management and risk communication difficulties.

A tweet from The New Yorker made Don mad: Bill Marler may be all that stands between you and Salmonella.  This resulted in Don tweeting back to The New Yorker.  Ben mentioned it was probably just Betteridge’s Law of Headlines.   Bill Marler is probably not all that stands between you and Salmonella; as there are a few more people trying to do the right thing.  The guys then go on to discuss how Marler and Caroline Smith DeWaal, a lawyer with the Center for Science in the Public Interest, have become controversial but generally respected food safety personalities over the years.

Don recently was quoted in an article about the safety of various cuts of meat (and Barfblogged here).   Don and Ben were so happy Don was quoted correctly, they were able to ‘ding’ their podcast bell; a auditory high-five.

Pork has a reputation for being dangerous but decreases in the prevalence of Trichinella and Americans tendency to overcook pork have reduced the actual risk, so Ben wanted to discuss a recent MMWR Trichinellosis report.  Don mentions ‘The Batz Report’ which determined the top 10 pathogen-food combinations with the greatest burden in public health.  This led to a discussion of sample size, detection limits, consumption rates, and risk messaging, leading to the conclusion that cultural practices in food preparation adds complexity to the determination of risk.

Food Safety Talk 58: Where's my wallet?

The guys started the show admiring Ben's new computer, and his House of Clay beer, before talking about Don and Victoria Backham's treadmill desks, Ricky Gervais bathtub photos, dressing up like a realtor, and confidence intervals.

Don and Ben then welcomed Bill Marler to the show. Bill's notoriety started with the Jack-in-the-Box outbreak (documented in the book Poisoned). The discussion moved to the Jensen farm legal case, in particular, the criminal aspects of unknowingly shipping contaminated food and the involvement of service providers, i.e. auditors. The guys also discussed the impact on apportioning liability as a result of the recent North Carolina limiting farmers liability law. The conversation then turned to Salmonella and Foster Farm's chicken and no one could understand why there hadn't been a recall.

The guys then discussed Listeria and cantaloupes, including CDC's recommendations and Don's paper on "Modeling the growth of Listeria monocytogenes on cut cantaloupe, honeydew and watermelon."

After a short detour via the AVN Awards, Bill got the chance to explain why he generally doesn't take on norovirus cases and the lengths he goes to before taking on a case, using the Townsend Farm Hepatitis A outbreak as an example. The conversation then turned to auditors and what the impact of the Jensen Farm litigation case might be.

After saying farewell to Bill, Don and Ben talked about podcasting, including Lex Friedman, and Libsyn's Rob Walch.

In the after dark the guys chatted about House of Cards, True Detective, Ben's quirky Aussie accent, Malaysia Airlines flight 370 and Lost.

Food Safety Talk 47: But that's not science

The guys started by talking about their office and home podcasting set-ups; how Don inspired his son Zac; podcast sponsorship (thanks Dr. Indian Clarified Butter); the Food Science short course at Rutgers; MC-ing; Ben’s wedding; and, customer service at Frito Lay’s and General Mills.

In the bug trivia segment the guys talked about the protozoan parasite Toxoplasma gondii, recently reviewed by Beniamino and colleagues. T. gondii was ranked the second worst pathogen in terms of quality adjusted life years (QALY) by Mike Batz (guest on FST 4) and colleagues, and recently featured on Back to Work.

The discussion took a short detour to food thermometers, including the PDT 300, iGrill, and ThermaPen, before coming around to the retiring Pete Snyder, from HI-TM. Pete is held in high regard by both Ben and Don, not only because he wasn’t afraid to ask questions, like Don did in the comment exchange to the Snapper barfblog article. Thanks to Pete’s guidance Ben is always seeking the primary information for creating his Infosheets.  A classic example of Pete’s drive for the scientific justification relates to the information produced on thawing poultry at ambient temperatures, which was picked up by barfblog.

Ben then talked about the CDC report on the tempeh related outbreak discussed in FST 18. He found it interesting that many of the illnesses appeared to be caused by cross-contamination rather than consumption of the contaminated, unpasteurized tempeh. Don was bummed that his own work wasn’t cited by the CDC, but he noted that Michelle’s recent work showed that cross-contamination was facilitated by moisture. This then turned into a broader discussion around managing risks in a food service setting.

Don then wanted to hear Ben’s thoughts about Bill Marler’s question on what cantaloupe and baseball have in common. Bill’s suggestion to change the incentives had the flavor of a Modest Proposal, but without the satire. Ben agreed that retailers and restaurants should be held responsible, as without them there isn’t enough pressure on the suppliers. The guys then discussed third party audits and the setting of supplier standards. Both agreed that the current system doesn’t work how it should and that proper data analysis could provide significant insights.

In the after dark the guys talked about Ben’s upcoming trip to Brazil, the PCV show, food safety a-holes, Mexican wrestling masks, the Conference for Food Protection councils, laws and sausages, and getting hurt at the doctor's office.

Food Safety Talk 42: The Powerful Barbecue Lobby

Don rang in from São Paulo, Brazil, where he is spending some time thanks to a project funded by Scientists without Borders and managed by the Godfather (Godmother?) of the Brazilian Food Safety Mafia Bernadette Franco.  But podcasting away from home is proving to be more challenging that he had imagined, especially when he leaves his computer in his hotel room.  The guys announced the new “subscribe” feature on the Food Safety Talk website where listeners can subscribe to a email newsletter and share the show via various platforms. This prompted the guys to talk about their social media practices. iTunes ratings and sponsorship inquires are always welcome!

Ben the shared his recent trip to Nebraska for STEC CAP Grant meetings and his tornado experiences. This included a discussion of mechanically tenderized beef and how FSIS is poised to release a labeling rule for these products (similar to Canada’s labeling regime discussed in FST 41).  The guys discussed John Luchansky’s research and the actual versus theoretical risks of blade and needle tenderized beef.

In the Bug Trivia segment the guys talked about E. coli O157:H7. A 1994 outbreak linked to fermented dry salami resulted in research by the same Luchansky, then at Food Research Institute (FRI), to assess the effect of USDA Method No. 7 (not Mambo No 5) on food safety. Ben commented that he had just finished Jeff Benedict’s book Poisoned, which is about the 1993 Jack-in-the-Box E. coli O157:H7 outbreak and both Ben and Don agreed that this was an important and easy read for anyone working in the food industry.

The guys then talked about some other interesting food related books, including Cooked, Salt Sugar Fat and Catching Fire. Ben shared some information about relevant NC state regulations in relation to supplemental cooking rooms in North Carolina and Amazing Ribs got a special BBQ mention.

While still on the E. coli O157 and BBQ theme, the guys then turned their attention to an E. coli O157 outbreak related to Georgia BBQ Shack. While iced tea, which the CDC knew could have high levels of bacteria back in 1996, has been on Don’s radar since the IAFP 2011 symposium on the safety of fountain-dispensed beverages.

The guys then turned their attention to The Pueblo Chieftain article on clean, cook, and chill. The nonsense in this article made the guys so angry. Since when does washing bananas make a difference (unless you eat the peel) and whatever happened to cross-contamination and temperature control (think cantaloupes)? Don thought that one way of getting the message out was to present at conferences and publish in journals of organizations such as NEHA or NACCHO, or bring the environmental health folks to attend IAFP.

In the after dark the guys talked about TabLinks, Brazilian VISA requirements, Carol Wallace (of HACCP: A Practical Approach fame), Daft Punk (👍👍) and The National (👎).

Food Safety Talk 24: Bagel tongs for twenty, Bob!

Today’s guest was Mike Batz, um, Joe Smith, who Skyped in from a hotel room while emptying the mini bar. Ben still hasn’t done his homework from last Season – watching The Wire. And to Mike's disappointment Ben hasn’t even watched The Lego Wire. The discussion then turned to playing with Lego, Ben’s vandalism activities as a teenager, craft paper maze making, Dungeons and Dragons and The Wire characters' D&D alignment.

The guys then got serious about food safety and discussed the Salmonella Typhimurium outbreak that CDC has linked to cantaloupes. At the time of the recording, the FDA hadn’t specifically commented on the potential source, though Chamberlain Farms had begun recalling cantaloupes. The guys thought it was strange that no FDA/CDC update on the situation has been issued for days and the overall lack of communication around this outbreak. However, Don noted that the lawyers are getting their ducks lined up and Bill Marler had already blogged about a lawsuit. Don asked Ben whether there is ever a right time to say nothing in a case like this. Ben didn’t think there was, but suggested that there was a right time to say “we’re uncertain” instead. He recalled the discussion mentioned in FST episode 6 about an outbreak of E. coli O157:H7 associated with the North Carolina State Fair, where the North Carolina Division of Public Health updated the information of what was known on a daily basis. Ben thought that this was better than the five-day cone-of-silence.

Mike was bothered by regulators implicating a whole growing region or commodity rather than naming the implicated farm, especially since the farm had already initiated a recall. It reminded him of what happened to Florida tomato growers a few years ago. Mike pointed out that implicating a whole region does not provide any incentive to an individual farmer to follow GAPs and do the right thing – since a neighbor who doesn’t do the right thing could wipe out all that effort.

In contrast, the Burch Farms recall, which was initiated after Listeria was detected on cantaloupes, but without an outbreak having occurred, did not result in the same level of concern. But Ben noted that the Burch Farms recall nevertheless resulted in questions being raised by buyers and cancellations of contracts, and as such the recall still impacted on the whole industry.

Don noted the fundamental differences between Listeria and Salmonella. He reminded the guys that the risk depends on the dose and that the dose-response relationship differs between the two organisms. Ben also noted the problem of applying a zero tolerance standard for ready-to-eat-foods to these agricultural commodity products, and Don highlighted the need for quantification when testing in addition to simple presence/absence testing.

Ben then explained the differences in the post harvest systems between California, where cantaloupes are not washed, compared to North Carolina, where cantaloupes are regularly washed. He noted that the use of water might provide an opportunity for cross contamination, which Don totally agreed with. The discussion then turned to Ben explaining that cantaloupes are washed because that’s what the industry has always done, though his experience indicates that farmers might be open to re-engineering their processes.

Don then produced a smorgasbord of potential topics for discussion and the guys settled on a 2002 blog post by John Gruber about Bagel Tongs on Fedora Review. In the article Gruber worried about bagels and that the “tong-arms are covered with some sort of moist, brown sediment.” Ben agreed with Gruber and would rather use tissue paper to pick up the bagels, though mainly because he feared contracting Norovirus from the tong handles. Don agreed with Ben that it’s not the crap at the end of the tongs, but the crap you can’t see that’s the problem. He also recalled that some cruise liners have a norovirus risk reduction measure, which involves staff serving passengers at the self-serve buffet on the first three days of the cruise.

Ben then reminisced about his high school days, when he wasn’t vandalizing his neighbors’ backyards but when he was working in a bulk food store. He had to clean and sanitize the scoop on a weekly basis, though he actually did this only when the prunes got really gunky. He never sanitized the handles – got to hold on to something while washing the scoop. Mike thought that the epidemiological evidence, that placed Ben at the epicenter of foodborne illness outbreaks, was building.

The show finished by Don telling the guys about wanting to order some Food Safety Talk promotional refrigerator temperature sensing magnets for inclusion in the MaxFunCon EAST show bags.

By now Mike Joe had sobered up somewhat and was eyeing the Arrogant Bastard that he’d been contemplating and this evolved into a broader discussion of alcohol consumption patterns.

In the after dark the guys talked about a range of “stuff” including Mike’s five-day FAO/WHO meeting bender on foodborne parasites in Rome.

Food Safety Talk 24: Bagel tongs for twenty, Bob!

Food Safety Talk 21: Food Safety Consultant to Apple Nerds

The guys are still having some problems with Skype though maybe some of it is related to Don hitting the permanent mute button.

Don prepared for his colonoscopy with the Suprep innards-cleansing purple sponge kit. He couldn’t stomach the diarrhea inducing preparation and Ben thought he could have achieved the same effect with some of Lee-Ann Jaykus’ fecal-harvested norovirus. But Don longs for a magic pill instead of eating poop (or drinking Suprep).

The discussion then turned to the inter-relations between food safety, social networking and the Internet. Don explained that the Internet was an interconnected series of tubes invented by Al Gore. This surprised Ben. Don then briefly detoured by reminiscing about the dinner he and Kristin had with Merlin Mann at the House of Prime Rib while on a trip to San Francisco, where the WWDC Apple nerds overlapped with the ASM micro nerds. This led to the story how Dan Benjamin asked Don to talk some food safety sense into Andy Ihnatko and Dave Nanian.  This inspires Don to proclaim himself food safety consultant to the Apple nerds, truly a golden god.

Bill Marler retweeted a reference to Don’s post on barfblog about hand-washing which received some criticism from a be-sandeled curmudgeon for lack of credit. Maybe he could use The Malcolm Gladwell Book Generator which (essentially) made Don an overnight Internet semi-celebrity thanks to a re-tweet by Merlin Mann.

When Ben (finally) got a word in he thought it was important to contribute to the food safety conversation on the Internet and for food professionals to know what is being talked about. Ben’s biggest challenge is finding the best way to engage with all the various social media outlets. Ben believes that people are only trusted if others can see they are real – such as Bill Marler as compared to USDA live tweet session about food safety “Ask Karen.”

While Ben and Doug’s twitter feeds are clearly food safety related, Don felt that his own was more random, such as asking Jesse Thorn for a link to the audio file for Jesse’s classic interview with Dick Dale. Don also uses Twitter as an outlet for his frustrations with a life in academe, but he was also curious about trying to socially engage random strangers reporting vomiting, diarrhea and food poisoning. Ben monitors some of these terms with TweetDeck, though he may switch to Hibari. Ben also pitched Lee-Ann on the idea of a team of graduate students engaging with those who are already reading and talking about foodborne illnesses and outbreaks as part of the NoroCore project.

Don recounted his recent appearance on Dr. Radio, a satellite radio show hosted by nutritionist Samantha Heller. He gave the podcast a plug, though the causal link with the growth in the FST podcast listenership is unknown.  Don did note that about 40% of blog traffic was thanks to links from barfblog. The guys were grateful to those who had left reviews, including Mike Batz, who struggles with multiple twitter personalities.

While Don knew that the guys from Car Talk were retiring, he found out from Jesse Thorn about a post written by Ira Glass about what public radio shows should do with the slot and the response to it. The success of Car Talk reminded Don of John Gruber and Merlin Mann’s South by Southwest Interactive 2009 talk about building a blog to be proud of. All you need is Obsession + Topic + Voice, something the guys are striving to perfect.

Another opportunity for a podcast plug will be Don’s IAFP webinar on “Making the Most of Your IAFP Annual Meeting: Tips for Students and First-Timers” Tuesday, 10 July 2012, 9:00 AM - 10:00 AM (Central Time). Ben recalled FST Episode 0 (on StoryCorps) and their first IAFP meeting experiences. The guys then talked about what they do and don’t do at conferences. This includes leaving sessions if they are bored.

Finally, the discussion turned to music and Ben shared that wishes he was food safety’s Neil Young. Don agreed that Neil Young’s Americana was amazing, but that he hasn’t quite got into Sloan, like Ben and Merlin.

Food Safety Talk 21: Food Safety Consultant to Apple Nerds