Food Safety Talk 58: Where's my wallet?

The guys started the show admiring Ben's new computer, and his House of Clay beer, before talking about Don and Victoria Backham's treadmill desks, Ricky Gervais bathtub photos, dressing up like a realtor, and confidence intervals.

Don and Ben then welcomed Bill Marler to the show. Bill's notoriety started with the Jack-in-the-Box outbreak (documented in the book Poisoned). The discussion moved to the Jensen farm legal case, in particular, the criminal aspects of unknowingly shipping contaminated food and the involvement of service providers, i.e. auditors. The guys also discussed the impact on apportioning liability as a result of the recent North Carolina limiting farmers liability law. The conversation then turned to Salmonella and Foster Farm's chicken and no one could understand why there hadn't been a recall.

The guys then discussed Listeria and cantaloupes, including CDC's recommendations and Don's paper on "Modeling the growth of Listeria monocytogenes on cut cantaloupe, honeydew and watermelon."

After a short detour via the AVN Awards, Bill got the chance to explain why he generally doesn't take on norovirus cases and the lengths he goes to before taking on a case, using the Townsend Farm Hepatitis A outbreak as an example. The conversation then turned to auditors and what the impact of the Jensen Farm litigation case might be.

After saying farewell to Bill, Don and Ben talked about podcasting, including Lex Friedman, and Libsyn's Rob Walch.

In the after dark the guys chatted about House of Cards, True Detective, Ben's quirky Aussie accent, Malaysia Airlines flight 370 and Lost.

Food Safety Talk 57: My Own Tea Mule

The guys started the show by sharing some family traditions including watching Jeopardy and drinking Rooibos tea.

They then discussed some raw milk questions posed by raw milk producer. Don suggested that there was specific scientific evidence to answer many of them. He also wondered about the scientific basis of some of the information presented in a recent RMI webinar.

Don then shared that he'll be podcast cheating again on an upcoming Real Food Real Talk episode on cottage food. This episode is now published here. The guys then transitioned to a recent cheese related Listeriosis outbreak affecting members of the Hispanic community. While health authorities have released some information on illnesses and the product there are many questions that are still to be answered.

After a false start and then covering the last part of the IAFP History, the 2000's, Ben put out a call to listeners for important outbreaks and food safety landmarks that Ben and Don could discuss in the upcoming Outbreak Flashback segment. It will be groovy. And have a disco theme.

The guys then turned to pizza and Alton Brown, who Don went to see live. Alton had dropped the pizza base before cooking it and that got Don worried about what message this was sending. Ben was amused by Alton's Twitter feed and fascinated by his earlier career. While on the pizza topic, Ben found some really stretched science reporting of this research article. The press release reminded the guys of Betteridge's law of headlines. The answer is always no.

The discussion of media reminded Don of this Andrew Gelman post about how to get your university press release reprinted by The Washington Post. Don concluded that the best practices for engaging people are also despicable. Ben suggested sometimes science-types need to go to where people are engaged and sort of play the same game. To quote Merlin Mann from 43 Folders: "Joining a Facebook group about creative productivity is like buying a chair about jogging."

To finish off, Ben raised the issue of consumers not following label instructions, as was the case with E. coli in Nestle Toll House Cookie Dough. Ben wanted to know how consumers learn about products and how to use those products.

In the after dark the guys covered Picturelife, and Siri not having what Don was looking for, which he posted on Facebook.  

Food Safety Talk 56: Damned hard to make safe food

The guys started the show following up on the previous episode, the write up on David Gumpert's website and the comments on the Internet. Theresa Lam also reached out wanting to know more about the risks associated with bootleg versus regulated raw milk.

Despite raw milk drinker's hatred of epidemiologists, Don confessed that maybe he wants to be an epidemiologist, while Ben noted that he has admired them ever since the Jalapeno Saintpaul outbreak. Don also praised Petran, White and Hedberg, for their efforts to identify what items in a restaurant inspection were predictive of the possibility of an outbreak, and Ben's comments to USA Today on the topic.

A quick round of "I think you're thinking of" with Howard Dean, and Roger Dean, not to be confused with Roger Dean followed. The guys then hopped back in time with the whizzinator before moving on to food storage mistakes and tortilla safety as prompted by Listener John Kimble.

The guys covered the 1990's in the IAFP history segment, which also featured a discussion of 808, the Beastie Boys and the speed of Joe Walsh's Maserati. Ben identified the 1990's with the adoption of PFGE and rapid methods, while Don though the Mega Regs characterized the time. Ben recalled a recent discussion with Cathy Cutter about meat processing and how HACCP shaped other food safety regulations.

The discussion then turned to Norovirus, prompted by a couple of recent noro outbreaks on the "Explorer of the Seas" and the Caribbean Princess, the boat that Chris Gunter boarded. Unfortunately, Chris couldn't find out whether the hand sanitizer on the ship was the one that works, though he was assured that it was "alcohol based". Ben wrapped up the noro discussion with the MoChunk resort outbreak. The guys talked about Netflix in the short after dark.

Food Safety Talk 55: Damn Ignorant PhDs

But I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in the mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn't frighten me.

- Richard Feynman, 1918-1988

The guys started the show with a teaser about a guest later in the show and reminisced about past guests Mike Batz, Chris Gunter, Michelle Danyluk and the infamous Andreas Kiermeier. The guys then followed up on cashew cheese (FST 53) and how to reach food entrepreneurs about hazards an risk management and resources like NECFE or the NMPAN. The guys then wondered about selling food (unregulated) over the Internet, possibly for Bitcoin, and the Swiss Cheese Pervert. And Don remembered Mary's name.

Then David Gumpert (The Complete Patient) came onto the show. David has written about raw milk and food rights including "The Raw Milk Revolution: Behind America's Emerging Battle over Food Rights" and "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Food Rights: The Escalating Battle Over Who Decides What We Eat". The guys invited David to come on the show as a follow-up to FST 53, Raw Milk Hampsterdam, and David's critique of it. For audiences most interested in raw milk topics, the conversation with David begins at 25:30.

Discussion topics the group touched on included raw milk and consumer choice, including the Raw Milk Institute, David's follow-up post and the Real Food Real Talk - Raw Milk Revealed, the Minnesota study, CDC's Estimation Methods and Attribution of Foodborne Illness, The Joint FDA/Health Canada QMRA for Listeriosis from Soft-Ripened Cheese and FDA's failure to attend an IAFP sponsored raw milk meeting.

In the after dark, which begins around 1:30:00, Don and Ben talked about Evernote, Habits, Shackelton Death or Glory, and Plan 9 from Outer Space.

Food Safety Talk 54: Rubber Dingus

The show started with Don sharing his recent Systematic experience. Ben then wanted some help with a prevalence calculation, as prompted by his undergraduate lecturer Ronald Brooks. The guys then reminisced about their high school teachers before turning on the freezing weather and frozen food, thanks to AFFI-CON 2014.

In answer to a listener question on the 4-hour rule, Don shared his recent JFP paper. Similar calculations (also by Don) have been used by a Conference for Food Protection (CFP) committee to develop guidance on lack of temperature control during emergency situations. That guidance will be presented as part of the 2014 CFP.

Thanks to the book "I Wear the Black Hat", Ben has really gotten back into heavy metal, especially Metallica, while Don's been re-reading The Sandman. This got the guys into a discussion of DC Comics versus Marvel Comics.

In the IAFP History segment the guys covered the 1980's, which saw the introduction of new technologies, like vacuum packaging and irradiation, the emergence of new pathogens, such as E. coli O157:H7, Listeria monocytogenes and Campylobacter, as well as zero tolerance).

The guys then speculated about the Salmonella Stanley outbreak linked to raw cashew cheese, before turning their attention to the Fox and Donkey meat scandal in China and the potential zoonotic food safety risks associated with foxes.

Ben then got a buzz from the 12 Surprising things you can make with a coffee pot, because it reminded of his college days. He's considering including the poaching chicken in a coffee maker as part of the dishwasher cooking research project discussed on earlier episodes. While there was plenty of wacky stuff on the interwebs over the holidays, this Wall Street Journal article about a frog in a Pret A Manger salad got Don all jumpy about Pret A Manger's knowledge about pesticides and food safety.

The guys finished the show discussing the Food Safety News article on "How to Break a Foodborne Illness Story."

In the after dark, Ben shared his work habits and this turned into a discussion of Don and Ben's favourite Starbucks. The guys then shared some movies and TV shows they like, including Saving Mr Banks, American Hustle, Back to the Future (I, II and III), Honey, I shrunk the Kids, Despicable me, Call the Midwife and Last Tango in Halifax.

Food Safety Talk 53: Raw Milk Hamsterdam

The guys battled Skype and CallRecorder, got bedazzled by The Smashing Pumpkins, a twitter buzz from Beyonce's album, and then lathered up with FDA's focus on antibacterial soaps.

They dove in to follow-up with additional information they received from Cheryl Deem from the American Spice Trade Association (ASTA) on the spice story in FST 52. Cheryl explained why ASTA didn't have a response to the FDA risk assessment as reported in this NYT article and shared a guidance document ASTA had prepared in 2011.

The discussion then turned to yet another pruno-related botulism outbreak in a Utah prison. Pruno has been discussed in FST 27 and the investigation of that outbreak has just been published in this paper, including the experimental Pruno recipe.

In the IAFP History segment, Don shared Manan Sharma's article on the 1970's, which marked changes to food consumption, food safety and environmental trends, including HACCP and microwaves. After a short 1970's detour to Jack Kirby's Fourth World Omnibus Vol 1, Ben marveled about the advances in microwave technology, including the magnetron. While Ben's new microwave exceeded his cooking expectation, Trader Joe's cooking instructions for Mac & Cheese fell short. In contrast to Trader Joe's, who don't have a social media presence, Don did like Publix who asked for a haiku on Twitter.

Don then shared his latest irritation with Fightbac.org. It was prompted by their latest campaign called Bac Down and their lack of understanding that Listeria monocytogenes can grow at temperatures as low 32 °F. The guys challenged listeners to send in their creative Bac-themed puns for great prices!

Ben then wanted to talk about Jeffery Arthur Feehan who tried to shoplift meat in his pants. But Ben wasn't quite so worried simply because store employees put the meat back on the shelf (a big yuck factor!), but that Jeffrey took the meat to the restroom for his pants stuffing misdemeanor. Jeffrey's comment to the judges reminded Ben of a famous Animal House quote.

The discussion then turned to a recent paper on Raw Milk Consumption and illnesses. While the underreporting aspect got some publicity, Ben suggested that all the information wasn't going to change minds This had been highlighted in this article on Michigan consumers of raw milk and that's got to do with raw milk proponents not trusting health officials. Ben discussed the "The Abuela project", an example of an innovative approach to overcoming the difficulty of developing successful education campaigns. The challenge of course is how to develop a campaign when raw milk sales are illegal (as is the case in some states). Maybe a Raw Milk Hamsterdam is the solution?

Food Safety Talk 52: A Keene epidemiologist

The guys started the show dreaming about a Red Mac Pro. They then turned to the passing of Bill Keene. Bill has been mentioned in various FST episodes and was a well respected epidemiologist as seen in the articles by the Oregonian and Doug Powell. The guys then turned to their beverages, Coffee Club, Napoleon Dynamite, Homeland, and Car Talk. Ben shared his preference for Aussie Rule football and Arcade Fire's album Reflektor. The conversation then turned to Don's limited iPhone music library, Privateering and Dire Straights, which reminded Ben of Money for Nothing and WWE Wrestling (not WWF Wrestling). To finish they talked about Christmas music, Bad Religion's Christmas Songs, Coulton and Roderick's One Christmas at a Time and Horrible Christmas songs.

Ben confused IAFP's History with Bug Trivia and shared Julian Cox's information about the 1960's, and this evolved into a broader discussion about the IAFP and its membership.

The discussion then turned back to Bill Keene and some of the outbreaks he had been involved in. This included a Salmonella Panama outbreak (not to be confused with Van Halen's Panama), which was the first outbreak that was solved through the innovative use of supermarket loyalty cards and that Bill and others were sued for (the lawsuit was eventually dropped.. The guys then discussed outbreak investigation in some detail and that public health officials are damned if they do and damned if they don't name commodities and suppliers. There is of course always a risk of getting the epidemiology wrong, as was the case with Salmonella Saintpaul in peppers. Finally, Bill's investigation of a Norovirus outbreak reminded Ben of a recent Norovirus outbreak in Las Vegas.

Then Ben commented on an exchange with Chris Gunter, who was presenting on traceability for small producers at the 2013 Strawberry Expo. Chris' presentation is based on the investigation of an E. coli O157 outbreak related to strawberries, in which Bill Keene played a part.

In the after dark, the guys reflected on mortality and that we should all Enjoy Every Sandwich. And because they love him,  Rob Ford got a mention again and again.

Food Safety Talk 51: Pee on the radiator

After congratulating Don on his birthday, the guys talked about their recent travels, including 10 slaca, the 3rd Asia Pacific International Conference on Food Safety, the China International Food Safety & Quality Conference & Expo, and then they compared their favorite David Tharp stories.

In follow up to FST 49: Less Risky Bathroom Event, Don shared some information about the microbiome of urine though he couldn't comment on which way to wipe. Ben also asked Don about the hygiene of hockey locker rooms, which was prompted by Pekka Rinne's E. coli infection. The discussion about locker rooms then reminded Ben about a big Norovirus outbreak of basketball players and Don that his student Hanna will be visiting some public bathrooms as part of the NoroCore project. And somehow the conversation turned to North America's most photogenic Major Rob Ford, aka Major McCrack.

In the Food Safety History segment, Don returned to the 1940's of IAFP's history, where advances in food safety were largely due to the requirements for supplying troops in World War II. This was not the first time that great advances in food safety were made in response to military needs, see for example the invention of canning.

Ben then wanted to talk about road kill, which has earned him the title of Dr Roadkill. This discussion originated from this recent article about a planned Montana permit system for salvaging road kill. The guys didn't agree with Fred Pritzker's arguments against the system.

The discussion then turned to the FDA Risk Profile Pathogen and Filth in Spices. The guys were disappointed by the Spice Producers response. It reminded them about the importance of good risk communication. Foster Farms provided another example of 'not to get it quite right', who added to their recent woes by showing that they can't count. Don wondered about their social media strategy and why so many media managers are dipsh*ts.

The guys touched on the fall out from the Sunland bankruptcy before moving on to fishy issues surrounding the regulation and trade of catfish.

To finish off the guys prepared for Thanksgiving with a Lifehacker article on leftovers. While the article was OK, the comments made their stomachs turn. Clearly they need to continue their battle to fix the internet one comment at a time.

In the after dark the guys discussed the latest OS X Mavericks upgrade, the TV show Veep, rejecting journal articles, Ben becoming a grumpy old man, Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz, End of the World, Adventure Time (Season 3)), Bronies and the Pulling the String podcast.

Food Safety Talk 50: Fifty pink flamingos

The guys started the show with a Flamingo flash back, Don's iTunes Radio "Grateful Dead" channel experiment (sans Katy Perry and Kanye West), New Girl with Zooey Deschanel, She & Him, Steve Earle, The Walking Dead, the Pulling the String podcast, and The Lone Ranger.

Don then shared how he used the Internet's way-back machine (not to be confused with Mister Peabody's WABAC Machine) to get around the black-out of US government websites.

Ben then turned to an NPR article about the Niche Meat Processor Assistance Network and a Kickstarter campaign to create an open source HACCP plan. This lead into a broader discussion of the work undertaken by extension specialists, Don's 'useless' Twitter exchange and how to find out about food safety using Let Me Google That For You.

In the Food Safety History segment, Don shared information from the IAFP History book about the 1950's and an increased focus on preventing foodborne illness.

Don then returned to his recent Twitter exchange about hand washing with @Frankly and @danbenjamin, which included this article from About.com. The article, which referenced unpublished work from 2000 by Barbara Almanza on hand sanitizers, got the guys fired up about the regulatory system and undertaking effective research on the assessing the efficacy of hand sanitizers. After taking yet another detour into the world of The Wire, the guys returned to hand sanitizers and discussed some research articles, including:

• Effectiveness of Liquid Soap and Hand Sanitizer against Norwalk Virus on Contaminated Hands

• Improved inactivation of nonenveloped enteric viruses and their surrogates by a novel alcohol-based hand sanitizer

• Comparative efficacy of seven hand sanitizers against murine norovirus, feline calicivirus, and GII.4 norovirus

• Management of Risk of Microbial Cross-Contamination from Uncooked Frozen Hamburgers by Alcohol-Based Hand Sanitizer

To finish this monster show, the guys briefly touched on Foster Farms fiasco, which they've kept on their list of things to discuss next time.

By the time the after dark came around Don was contemplating a career in pottery, while Ben favored rolling cigars for a living.

Food Safety Talk 49: Less Risky Bathroom Event

The show started with Don and Ben sharing their love for iOS7 and iTunes Radio. Ben's still on his Beach Boys trip, having recently watched Beautiful Dreamer.

The discussion then quickly turned to food safety follow up. Ben wasn't happy with his Food Safety News interview on dishwasher cooking and the message that he might have sent. Don felt that a really important aspect was the multitude of variables that can change from one dishwasher to another and hence that it was difficult be safe.

The guys then discussed some listener feedback about safety of low sugar jellies, which was related to the work of one of Don's master's student. The listener commended the work on low sugar jellies, which will help provide important information to existing Cottage Food Guidelines. The guys then delved into the effects of water activity, pH, sugar contents for the safety of the preserving process and how some products, such as the Cronut Maple Jam, fall far outside the known safe zone. This got Ben onto the Toronto Public Health investigation update on the Cronut Burger outbreak, which was related to the already risky jam not being refrigerated by the producer or the vendor who purchased it.

Don then gave Amy Jane Gruber, from Just The Tip podcast, a plug for her participation in the Fare Walk for Food Allergy. You might even hear her on a future FST episode.

In the Food Safety History segment, Don shared the initial editorial from the journal of milk technology, which while written in 1937 still resonates strongly with today's food safety activities.

Ben then described personal challenge he has urinating in his office building without getting splash back. This reminded the guys of the aerosolization in the bathroom and potential risk that this can pose.

Ben then recalled the UPI story about a Swedish man urinating on supermarket produce. While urine is normally sterile, Ben wondered about the risks. While Don couldn't quantify the risk on the spot, he noted that in HACCP terms hand washing after a bowel movement was a CCP while after peeing it could be considered a GHP. But both agreed that sick workers just shouldn't be at work.

The discussion then turned to raw milk cheeses, which was prompted by the Gort's Gouda raw milk cheese related outbreak in Canada. Don noted that the rate of inactivation in a particular product was more important that just a '60-day limit' say. That's because the final risk is integrally related to the starting concentration and the inactivation rate.

To finish off the podcast Don wanted to talk about the Food Safety News article on food date labels, which was based on this NRDC work. While Don agreed that date labels were confusing, he was also rather sceptical of the underlying work.

In the after dark, the guys talked about the new markdown format for the shownotes and planned their podcasting schedules for the next few episodes.

Food Safety Talk 48: Ninja moves to rock and roll

The guys started the show with some general chit chat about The Beer Store and The Nail Shop, the Beach Boys, including "Pet Sounds", Chuck Berry, Bed Bad Baaaaaaatz, Don's Etymotic hf5 earphones, Twitter, (including this discussion), and Barb O'Neill's great work.

Prompted by a link from Alejandro Amezquita, the guys then turned their attention to laundry and in the process gave the phrase "Eat My Shorts!" a new meaning. In the article, Lisa Ackerley discussed the hygiene of laundering. The guys recalled a couple of research articles by Chuck Gerba related to the topic (here and here). Neither Don nor Ben were particularly worried about this.

This reminded Ben of The Salt article on cooking food in the dishwasher. The guys discussed the potential risk of this approach and the sciences that is needed. Another The Salt article on washing poultry had also resulted in a large amount of social media engagement, which is something the Don and Ben are always keen to explore. And both enjoyed Alton Brown's proper method for washing out the inside of a whole poultry.

The guys then moved onto the bug trivia replacement segment called Food Safety History, in honor of a 100 years of the IAFP Journal of Food Protection. In this episode the Don covered the pre 1940 era. It all started with the Journal of Milk Technology and the connection with raw milk reminded Ben of this Toronto Star article.

Don then wanted to talk about this NY Times article, related to Salmonella in spices, and the related Food Microbiology article. Don posed Ben the questions that he was asked for a Rutgers Q&A press release on this topic and the guys compared their answers.

The guys then got fired up about the Cronut Burger-related outbreak article by Jason Tetro. Ben didn't quite agree with some of Jason's assumptions, so Ben queried the manufacturers about the parameters of the product, which Le Dolci didn't know. Ben eventually found the answer from Toronto Public Health, and was able to set the record straight.

To finish off, Don mentioned The New Disruptors podcast (earlier episodes), which featured Marisa McClellan in Episode 38 "Yes, we can!" talking about food preservation. Don was pleasantly surprised by her knowledge, including her mention of the National Center for Home Food Preservation.

In the after dark the guys continued the canning discussion, including Canvolution, Canning Across America and pink flamingos for their 50th episode.

Food Safety Talk 47: But that's not science

The guys started by talking about their office and home podcasting set-ups; how Don inspired his son Zac; podcast sponsorship (thanks Dr. Indian Clarified Butter); the Food Science short course at Rutgers; MC-ing; Ben’s wedding; and, customer service at Frito Lay’s and General Mills.

In the bug trivia segment the guys talked about the protozoan parasite Toxoplasma gondii, recently reviewed by Beniamino and colleagues. T. gondii was ranked the second worst pathogen in terms of quality adjusted life years (QALY) by Mike Batz (guest on FST 4) and colleagues, and recently featured on Back to Work.

The discussion took a short detour to food thermometers, including the PDT 300, iGrill, and ThermaPen, before coming around to the retiring Pete Snyder, from HI-TM. Pete is held in high regard by both Ben and Don, not only because he wasn’t afraid to ask questions, like Don did in the comment exchange to the Snapper barfblog article. Thanks to Pete’s guidance Ben is always seeking the primary information for creating his Infosheets.  A classic example of Pete’s drive for the scientific justification relates to the information produced on thawing poultry at ambient temperatures, which was picked up by barfblog.

Ben then talked about the CDC report on the tempeh related outbreak discussed in FST 18. He found it interesting that many of the illnesses appeared to be caused by cross-contamination rather than consumption of the contaminated, unpasteurized tempeh. Don was bummed that his own work wasn’t cited by the CDC, but he noted that Michelle’s recent work showed that cross-contamination was facilitated by moisture. This then turned into a broader discussion around managing risks in a food service setting.

Don then wanted to hear Ben’s thoughts about Bill Marler’s question on what cantaloupe and baseball have in common. Bill’s suggestion to change the incentives had the flavor of a Modest Proposal, but without the satire. Ben agreed that retailers and restaurants should be held responsible, as without them there isn’t enough pressure on the suppliers. The guys then discussed third party audits and the setting of supplier standards. Both agreed that the current system doesn’t work how it should and that proper data analysis could provide significant insights.

In the after dark the guys talked about Ben’s upcoming trip to Brazil, the PCV show, food safety a-holes, Mexican wrestling masks, the Conference for Food Protection councils, laws and sausages, and getting hurt at the doctor's office.

Food Safety Talk 46: The mother of all messy epidemiology

During their podcasting foreplay Don and Ben discussed their breakfast choices, their love for guacamole (despite the risks associated with cilantro), and the challenge of separating work from private life.

The guys then got onto the recent IAFP annual meeting (abstracts are here), which clearly was a huge success. Ben was impressed by Michelle Danyluk’s deconstruction of the FSMA Fresh Produce rule to create a convincing story, which included recently published work from Don and Michelle. Ben then talked about the symposium on farmers' markets, and Erin Jobe’s talk about the realities of the Carrboro Farmer’s Market. Lastly, the guys talked about the round table discussion on “Bridging Gaps between Scientific Assessment of Risk and Public Perception” which was reported on Barfblog and Food Safety News. And of course, IAFP always includes Karaoke.

Moving on from IAFP, Don noted that he’s following John Gruber and Merlin Mann's advice and is podcasting for just one person, Chuck Haas. Turns out that Chuck also sent an email about an upcoming publication on the dose-response curve for Helicobacter pylori (see FST 45).

Ben then recalled the conversation about the Salmonella outbreak associated with the Holiday Inn and the article he wrote on barfblog. Ben wondered why employees wouldn’t tell management that they were sick but would tell the health department? Both Don and Ben concluded that it’s surely related to not getting paid while being off work.

The discussion then turned to the current Cyclospora messiness and disagreement between epidemiologists. While there is lots of bad advice out there, the most recent information indicates a link to prewashed salad mix to Taylor Farms de Mexico, though this information wasn’t available when ACSH reported that the “mystery was solved". The guys also noted Bill Marler’s interesting thoughts about disclosure as well as why naming a product too early can have consequences. The guys also re-iterating that washed fresh-cut salads don’t need additional washing.

To finish off, Ben wanted to talk about Jimmy John’s who are considering bringing back sprouts, with a warning sign. Don felt that this approach was nonsense and that the risks of eating still outweigh the risks of not eating. Instead Don wanted to know about Jimmy John’s food safety program, and whether it included buying from sprouters who get it, like Bob Sanderson’s at Jonathan Sprouts. Ben wasn’t against the label though he felt that it could be improved.

In the after dark the guys talked about Don’s video call with IFT, his appearance on SSKTN’s Show me your Mic (including the After Show me your Mic), preschool and the Food Safety Talk newsletter. 

Food Safety Talk 45: My chicken is dry

Ben had difficulty talking while eating, which didn’t matter too much while the guys discussed the weather. A link from fan Erin (see also barfblog coverage), on the emerging food-safety-expose genre got Don and Ben warmed up for the show.

To follow up from FST 44, Ben’s H. pylori issues have been resolved, though one of his hockey friends had an interesting story involving yogurt. The guys then followed up on the mechanically tenderized beef discussion from FST 43 and FST 44, and a bit about Ben’s grad student’s research plan.

The guys then took a pop culture detour thanks to Ben worrying about peaking to early (research wise speaking), which remind Don of a Dan Bern’s Tiger Wood song. The discussion also covered Sound City, and some Australian pop-culture with Muriel's Wedding and The Castle.

In the bug trivia segment the guys focused on Vibrio parahaemolyticus, which is the other fast growing bacterium (c.f. FST 39) and can double every 7 minutes under optimal conditions. Don was familiar with this organism as he’s published about the effects of lime juice on V. parahaemolyticus in ceviche. The guys then tossed around some ideas for a follow up segment for when they run out of bugs for bug trivia which included using the IAFP 100 year celebration materials.

The discussion then turned to a Food Safety News articles on the NC Farm Bill and Ben thought that there might be some unintended consequences to this Bill. The guys then discussed the broader issues related to the risks of producing food, especially produce, and what this means for liability. The guys agreed that in some cases there just aren’t identifiable contributing factors, such as in the Fayetteville outbreak, and contemplated that this might differ in terms of liability compared to a case where there is clear negligence.

The focus then shifted to chickens, which was prompted by this paper in Journal of Food Safety. The rates of Campylobacter and Salmonella found on chickens purchased from farmer’s markets and supermarkets were similarly high. Don was also interested in a link shared by Andreas about raw chicken hand towel, especially because of the comments posted to it. To finish off the chicken theme the guys talked about a Salmonella Heidelberg outbreak linked to a single poultry producer. But the industry and USDA have been vewy, vewy quiet!

Ben’s watching The Newsroom again and in the after dark the guys were frustrated by their iTunes ratings and that Carl Winter and even a dog food safety podcast episode was rating higher. Ben also shared the sacrifices he has to make to get new hockey skates. The guys finished off with a trail mix inspired Best in Show, Family Tree, Launch Bar and Food Safety Talk shirts.

Food Safety Talk 44: Stool Sampling Tools

The show started with Mr. Roboto, Brazilian Cheese Bread, the upcoming IAFP’s annual meeting in Charlotte, and StoryCorps (not to be confused with Adventure Time). At the IAFP meeting Ben will be stuffing bags at the Food Lion and Don will try to control the unruly Dr. Harris at her first board meeting. The guys then celebrated Canada Day with some pop culture such as The Tragically Hip, Rheostatics and Frampton Comes Alive! (as featured on FST 1), and Reality Bites.

Ben and Don then turned their attention to Helicobacter pylori. Ben reported having had a belch inducing H. pylori infection, which was diagnosed by a breath test. It reminded Ben of Don’s asymptomatic H. pylori infection. Don wondered how Ben got exposed to H. pylori and whether it may have been foodborne, which Ben agreed was a possibility. In fact, Helicobacter pylori and Food Products indicates that the organism can also be widespread in some drinking water supplies. Don also noted an article on “Assessing the Risks and Benefits of Treating Helicobacter pylori Infection" which pointed at the possible commensal role of H. pylori.

The discussion moved from gastrointestinal microflora, to soil and water microflora and ecology and the impact of microflora on safety of the produce grown in different areas. This turned into a broader discussion of farming and extension and the need for multifunctional teams, such as NoroCore and STEC CAP.

In FST episode 43 the guys discussed the silliness of washing bananas, and Ben found yet another ridiculous article on the same topic. Don pointed out the lack of epidemiological evidence linking foodborne illness with bananas, though he recognized that “absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence.” The earlier conversation about bananas prompted Don to post humorous photos of the individually wrapped bananas he found in the United Lounge at São Paulo airport.

Don then shared an email from listener ‘Deep South’ who was wondering where mechanically tenderized beef was being sold. An FMI survey of the membership indicated that none of the responding members sold this type of beef. So while it appears that the product is predominantly sold through food service, Ben noted the lack of epidemiological evidence connecting illness outbreaks with food service.

The guys then turned their attention to the Townsend Farm related Hepatitis A outbreak, which FDA has now linked to Pomegranate seeds. Ben applauded Bill Keene for focusing on employees first. Ben shared his thoughts about handling of pomegranate seeds and how they could become contaminated with Lynne Terry via Twitter. But are other producers learning from this and asking their suppliers the right questions?

In the after dark the guys discussed Ben’s tenure application. Good luck, Ben.

Food Safety Talk 43: I'm Sorry I Smeared Poo

Don is now a VIP in Brazil, at least as measured by Internet speed, while Ben was trying to get some grad students onto the interwebs. The guys then talked a bit about pop culture and follow up, including how John Oliver is stepping into 'The Daily Show’, Don’s TiVo usage, Adventure Time on Netflix and Poop and Produce. The guys felt a little challenged by their rapid recording schedule, having only recorded a show a few days ago, and syncing their notes for the show using Dropbox. Don shared his podcast equipment challenges and some of his São Paulo photos (such as this, this and this). Ben shared his own peaceful Sunday morning experiences and the awesome Australian Laborastory.

In the Bug Trivia segment the guys covered Trichinella spiralis. This little nematode is also known as the ‘pork worm’ though it is no longer commonly found in pork in developed countries. Ben likes this little critter and uses it to illustrate great public health communications that resulted in pork generally being cooked overly well. And Don was proud of the small role he played in getting the safe cooking temperature changed for chicken.

The guys then shifted from overcooked pork to undercooked beef burgers. Ben shared some of the work his summer students were doing on ordering burgers and the risk information that is provided by serving staff. Don described how he would calculate the risk of illness from consuming a burger that was cooked to 145°F (62.7°C), something that the inquisitive Marge Perry was interested in.

Ben noted that the USDA was going to implement a labeling rule for mechanically tenderized meat and the guys were happy to take the credit for this change. But they were the disappointed by other food safety failures going on around the country, such as the large outbreak related to Firefly restaurant. The guys seriously question the food safety practices at Firefly given the large number of foods associated with the outbreak. But applause went to the public health folks for being very quick in releasing the outbreak investigation reports.

Food Safety Talk 42: The Powerful Barbecue Lobby

Don rang in from São Paulo, Brazil, where he is spending some time thanks to a project funded by Scientists without Borders and managed by the Godfather (Godmother?) of the Brazilian Food Safety Mafia Bernadette Franco.  But podcasting away from home is proving to be more challenging that he had imagined, especially when he leaves his computer in his hotel room.  The guys announced the new “subscribe” feature on the Food Safety Talk website where listeners can subscribe to a email newsletter and share the show via various platforms. This prompted the guys to talk about their social media practices. iTunes ratings and sponsorship inquires are always welcome!

Ben the shared his recent trip to Nebraska for STEC CAP Grant meetings and his tornado experiences. This included a discussion of mechanically tenderized beef and how FSIS is poised to release a labeling rule for these products (similar to Canada’s labeling regime discussed in FST 41).  The guys discussed John Luchansky’s research and the actual versus theoretical risks of blade and needle tenderized beef.

In the Bug Trivia segment the guys talked about E. coli O157:H7. A 1994 outbreak linked to fermented dry salami resulted in research by the same Luchansky, then at Food Research Institute (FRI), to assess the effect of USDA Method No. 7 (not Mambo No 5) on food safety. Ben commented that he had just finished Jeff Benedict’s book Poisoned, which is about the 1993 Jack-in-the-Box E. coli O157:H7 outbreak and both Ben and Don agreed that this was an important and easy read for anyone working in the food industry.

The guys then talked about some other interesting food related books, including Cooked, Salt Sugar Fat and Catching Fire. Ben shared some information about relevant NC state regulations in relation to supplemental cooking rooms in North Carolina and Amazing Ribs got a special BBQ mention.

While still on the E. coli O157 and BBQ theme, the guys then turned their attention to an E. coli O157 outbreak related to Georgia BBQ Shack. While iced tea, which the CDC knew could have high levels of bacteria back in 1996, has been on Don’s radar since the IAFP 2011 symposium on the safety of fountain-dispensed beverages.

The guys then turned their attention to The Pueblo Chieftain article on clean, cook, and chill. The nonsense in this article made the guys so angry. Since when does washing bananas make a difference (unless you eat the peel) and whatever happened to cross-contamination and temperature control (think cantaloupes)? Don thought that one way of getting the message out was to present at conferences and publish in journals of organizations such as NEHA or NACCHO, or bring the environmental health folks to attend IAFP.

In the after dark the guys talked about TabLinks, Brazilian VISA requirements, Carol Wallace (of HACCP: A Practical Approach fame), Daft Punk (👍👍) and The National (👎).

Food Safety Talk 41: Always Looking Out for Nuts

Don shared that he’s been flogging the podcast mercilessly during his recent travels. The guys then launched straight into the Bug Trivia segment, highlighting Clostridium perfringens, which can be a big problem particularly for meat processors who need to cool large cuts of cooked meat quickly (to meet the FSIS performance standard). Carl Custer’s notes indicate that it was infamous for causing gas gangrene. During cooking of meat the spores germinate and these can grow incredibly fast if the rate of cooling is inadequate. Luckily it generally doesn’t cause death, but can cause a potentially fatal disease called pig-bel especially in countries where cooked meat is held at room temperature for long periods of time. Ben has developed some food safety infosheets for this organism, including this one detailing an outbreak linked to a school event.

The guys then turned their attention to baked goodies and that some things on the Internet are not true. Don referred to one of those typical urban legend emails warning people to discard their out-of-date pancake and cake mixes for risk of causing anaphylactic allergic reactions. Turns out that there is some truth to the matter as you can see from Snopes and this scientific article “An unusual case of anaphylaxis. Mold in pancake mix.” While there are some incorrect aspects to the story, Don would always advise people to not use food that has passed its best or sell by date because of the lower quality (the dates are there for a reason).

The conversation then turned to canning as Ben, the self-proclaimed Canning King of Wake County NC, recently received a question about canning mushrooms. While the email appeared to be about quality, Ben’s concern was Clostridium botulinum (see bug trivia in FST 39) and hence he elevated this email to an 11 on the 1 to 10 scale. So, Ben passed on information on canning mushrooms from the National Center for Home Food Preservation. Don was also dealing with canning questions and was worried about people fiddling with established jam recipes for fear of a repeat of what happened in Cowichan with watermelon jelly.

Ben then went on a Salmonella-fuelled hazelnut caper – he was grumpy about the lack of supplier information provided by the CFIA, although Lynne Terry from The Oregonian managed to find it out. Ben felt this information could be important to other distributers who would be able to make better decisions (provided they had the right food safety culture). Don noted that weenie public health folk, such as Dr. Eric Wilke, had Doug all fired up. Dr Wilke’s antics at the press conference turned serious foodborne illness outbreak into bizarre theater. Not cool, dude. The Salmonella outbreak from Fayetteville Hotelon the I-95 reminded Don of FST 11 and the guys discussed some of the ill-informed responses of public health officials after food borne illness outbreaks.

Don and Ben then turned their attention to needle tenderized beef, which was prompted by the MeatingPlace opinion about this Consumer Reports article. While James Marsden was against labeling of mechanically tenderized beef, Canada has already moved to such a labeling requirement, although Doug had some questions about it. Ben had managed to find some research on cooking inoculated and mechanically tenderized beef, although the debate about it is ongoing. Both Ben and Don would prefer to have this type of product clearly labeled, although their preference is for naturally tender and flavorsome beef cuts (such as MSA graded beef).

In the after dark the guys talked about Don’s upcoming trip to Brazil and Denmark, and Ben's trip to Nebraska.

Food Safety Talk 40: All in on Boogers

The guys started the show with some news and general chit chat, including hockey, an article about fighting bacteria with mucus, Linked In (perhaps the creepiest social network), Don’s Silver Beaver Award, surely a ’Major Award’, and the TV they are watching: Arrested Development, Adventure Time and Game of Thrones.

The new ‘Food is the New Rock’ podcast (suggested by fan of the show Brian Sauders - @BSauders) that provides a blend of food and music topics, reminded Ben of this Freganism barfblog article. Don then mentioned some interesting work of University of Iowa's Computational Epidemiology Group was working on, which was followed by a discussion about IAFP annual conference and IAFP PDGs.

The bug trivia segment focused on Staphylococcus aureus, which is ubiquitous in the human and animal buccal cavities. Staph produces a heat resistant enterotoxin in food, famous in part for causing the Chinese canned mushrooms outbreak. Don also noted that S. aureus poisoning was also known as Ptomaine poisoning.

The guys then talked about this SciLogs article by Matt Shipman (from Ben and Matt YouTube fame) and why people might not care about grants that have been awarded but are more interested in research outcomes.

The discussion then turned to the Salmonella Saintpaul cucumber outbreak and Ben was surprised by the lack of media coverage this outbreak created. Don noted that cucumbers generally had high microbial counts, as did other fresh produce such as tomatoes and lettuce, and he wondered why there hadn’t been more outbreaks to date. Ben was wondering whether contamination might be related to the water used in greenhouse production, which reminded Don of a recent article on bacteria in surface waters. Don pondered whether high relative humidity in greenhouses might be related to the transfer of pathogens.

The NSF’s article on the germiest kitchen items made Don and Ben so angry. They were flabbergasted by the lack of scientific rigor used in the work and in the reporting of it. The less-than-helpful food safety messages in the article reminded Don of Merlin Mann’s Old Butchers post, which mentions the ‘useful’ Lifehacker article on using soap to clean dishes.

The guys didn’t feel much better about the Consumer Reports article on ground turkey. They wondered about the low Campylobacter isolation rate and Don shared some concerns about the study that he had also discussed with Marge Perry. Ben and Don congratulated AMI on their spot on public response but they felt that the National Turkey Federation response lived up to its name.

In the after dark the guys talked about Dan Rockey’s research on Chlamydia and Don’s upcoming Brazil trip thanks to Scientists without Borders.

Food Safety Talk 39: Des Moines is Known for their Scallops

The guys start by answering a question from listener Tom (whom Ben met at the Consumer Federation of America National Food Policy conference) and his request for guidance on research areas in food safety. Don’s advice was that Tom should follow his passion and from there pick a university or faculty member. This then turned into a broader discussion about education, with a focus on distance and online learning.

Don then talked about his attendance at ISGP’s  Food Safety, Security, and Defense: Focus on Technologies and Innovations conference in Verona, Italy, which operates under the Chatham House Rules (not to be confused with the Cider House Rules). Don really enjoyed the discussions between the scientific experts and policy makers and he enjoyed meeting Lynn Frewer. Don also talked about his recent visit to GOJO with his student (and some times listener Dane Jensen) to discuss Dane’s PhD research.

In the Bug Trivia segment, Ben talked about Clostridium botulinum, the ‘sausage poisoning’ bug, and Ben’s recent Barfblog post on the topic. The guys thought that tin-foiled potatoes caused unnecessarily large concern because of one outbreak, as most botulism cases are linked to ineffective home canning practices. While Ben had trouble pronouncing nitrosamines, he challenged Andreas to find papers by Gibson and Roberts on Clostridium and cured meats. Andreas did not disappoint, finding Factors controlling the growth of Clostridium botulinum types A and B in pasteurized, cured meats parts I, II, III, IV, V, and VI.

The guys then talked about the Egg Rollie, as Aaron "you-SUE-ghee" wanted to know whether the cooked ‘egg rollie’ could be contaminated by raw egg as it rises. Ben wasn’t too concerned and Don pointed out that while there was a risk, the risks of illness from eating raw eggs were rather low.

The conversation then turned to the Listeria and cantaloupes, as FDA was planning to undertake a survey of Listeria monocytogenes in US cantaloupe packing houses. Ben has been organizing industry workshops with Chris Gunter (guest in FST episode 3) and some others. Ben explained what he would do if he was a producer and FDA were about to visit his packing house for sampling. Don agreed with Ben’s strategy and pointed out that baseline information on pathogen prevalence on produce was needed. However, the guys couldn’t understand why the samples were not also going to be tested for Salmonella, which had been involved in more cantaloupe related outbreaks than Listeria. In addition, Don wasn’t convinced that this survey was the best use of public funds. This reminded Don of a USA Today article on sequestration which included a Doug Powell quote, which Don also posted on his Tumblr.

Ben sent a shout out to Ashley Chaifetz, a PhD student studying public policy, who wrote a Barfblog post on Salmonella in dog food (and this follow up post) and how she now longer trusted the dog food manufacturer. Finally the guys sent a big thank you to the folks at SHS Design who updated their FST logo for iTunes.

In the after dark the guys talked about a couple of iTunes comments, their usual scheduling challenges, a potential guest, "Rappaz R.N. Dainja” and Science Online.